I Like Tanks!

[Ish]

If I ever add a Primaris Rhino/Excelsior Land Raider, I am definitely not going to use the official models. Much easier (and cheaper) to grab the basic Rhino and Land Raider kits, then order some third-party guns and radar dishes.

[Ish]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Have you considered an actual brick on a flying stand?

I’d be too worried my opponents would confuse it for a Stormraven (see fig. 1).

 

[Guest]

Just now, Ish said:

I’d be too worried my opponents would confuse it for a Stormraven (see fig. 1).

 

The Repulsor wouldn't have wings...

[Ish]

Just now, paxmiles said:

The Repulsor wouldn't have wings...

Just MOARGUNZ!

[Guest]

Yeah, you'd need the weapons, but you could put an actual brick on a *very reinforced* skimmer base, and most people wouldn't even notice the conversion...

[Ish]

For the Repulsor-Replacer, I’m strongly leaning toward the Caiman Heavy APC from Khurasan Miniatures.

A couple of weapon swaps, a few Aquila badges, and presto!

The official Repulsor is approximately 170 x 110 x 120 mm, not counting options like radio aerials or the crewman stick out of the turret. The Khurasan Caiman is listed as being 190 mm long, but I can’t find height or width. Eyeballing it, I think it’s only slightly narrower in width and probably only half as tall... 

I suppose I can always e-mail them and ask.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Ish said:

For the Repulsor-Replacer, I’m strongly leaning toward the Caiman Heavy APC from Khurasan Miniatures.

A couple of weapon swaps, a few Aquila badges, and presto!

The official Repulsor is approximately 170 x 110 x 120 mm, not counting options like radio aerials or the crewman stick out of the turret. The Khurasan Caiman is listed as being 190 mm long, but I can’t find height or width. Eyeballing it, I think it’s only slightly narrower in width and probably only half as tall... 

I suppose I can always e-mail them and ask.

You'd still have to put it on a skimmer base for WYSIWYG rules. I guess you could go "back to the future" with the wheels...

[fluger]

This makes me want to run my all tank IG again...

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

You'd still have to put it on a skimmer base for WYSIWYG rules.

Nope.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Nope.

Why not?

[InfestedKerrigan]

They don't come on skimmer bases.

[fluger]

[Ish]

They come on a 100 mm round base with a very short, very stubby clear stand that makes them "float" about a half inch off the table. See attached picture.

However, the Repulsor has a special rule that specifies that "[d]istances and ranges are always measured to and from this model's hull, even though it has a base." Ergo, I don't expect too many people will mind if I use a model that doesn't have the base at all. Provided I follow all the typical good sportsmanship practices like telling them I'm using a proxy, asking for their permission, and so forth.

[WestRider]

11 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Have you considered an actual brick on a flying stand?

I already got that experience with 2nd Ed Land Speeders. Don't need a repeat 😉

[WestRider]

Oops, double post.

[SPaceORK]

Someone should do magnitized floating repulsors. Like with some sort of electronic magnet thing...

[Ish]

7 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Someone should do magnitized floating repulsors. Like with some sort of electronic magnet thing...

I’ve seen this done with Eldar Jetbikes and even a Vyper... A Repulsor might be a bit too heavy, although given the larger hull, you could probably fit an equally large magnet in it.

The thing is, the base for such a model has to contain the electromagnet, itself, which means it’s quite bulky. Makes for a great display piece, but not so good for gaming.

[Ish]

Remember when I said that "I like tanks!" Well, I do. I do like tanks... So let's see if I can come up with something that matches that them. This combines a small Battalion of Primaris Infantry with two Spearheads of three tanks each, for a healthy 10 CP. This gives me the option for either the Killshot or Linebreaker Stratagem, but pretty much every opponent will see that coming and try to kill one of the trio. Odds are good, however, that they can't kill a Predator and a Vindicator in the same turn so long as I do my part with manuvering and LOS blocking. The Rhino Primaris also packs a BFG, which might catch people by surprise... at least once. Two Tech-Marines and the Rhino Primaris can keep the tank's HP topped up pretty well too.

The list is a little weak in mêlée, there's quite a few power fists and servo-arms floating around, but nothing too specialized in assaults. There's also no real anti-air assets, although 36" Heavy Plasma Incinerators combined the Rhino Primaris's Servo-Skull Hub (+1 to hit rolls when shooting) and the bullet-hose of the Redemptor Dreadnought should be decent at chewing up a lighter Flyer. 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP [ 960 pts ] ++

+ HQ +
* Primaris Librarian (Warlord) : Powers: Veil of Time, Null Zone; Force Sword, Trait: Storm of Fire [ 101 pts ]
* Rhino Primaris: Orbital Array, Twin Plasmaguns [ 170 pts ]

+ Troops +
* Intercessor Squad: 5x Stalker Bolt Rifles, 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Chainsword [ 85 pts ]
* Intercessor Squad: 5x Auto Bolt Rifles, 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Power Fist [ 99 pts ]
* Intercessor Squad: 10x Bolt Rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Power Fist [179 pts ]

+ Elites +
* Redemptor Dreadnought: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [ 155 pts ]

+ Heavy Support +
* Hellblaster Squad: 5x Heavy Plasma Incinerators [ 175 pts ]

++ Spearhead Detachment Alfa +1CP [ 500 pts ] ++

+ HQ +
* Techmarine: Bolt pistol, Power Axe, Servo-Harness [ 61 pts ]

+ Elites +
* Servitors: 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Servo-Arms [ 40 pts ]

+ Heavy Support +
* Vindicator: Hunter-Killer Missile, Pintle Storm Bolter [ 133 pts ]
* Vindicator: Hunter-Killer Missile, Pintle Storm Bolter [ 133 pts ]
* Vindicator: Hunter-Killer Missile, Pintle Storm Bolter [ 133 pts ]

++ Spearhead Detachment Bravo +1CP [ 540 pts ] ++

+ HQ +
* Techmarine: Bolt Pistol, Power axe, Servo-Arm [ 50 pts ]

+ Elites +
* Servitors: 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Servo-Arms [ 40 pts ]

+ Heavy Support +
* Predator Destructor : Predator Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons [ 150 pts ]
* Predator Destructor : Predator Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons [ 150 pts ]
* Predator Destructor : Predator Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons [ 150 pts ]

[Guest]

I like it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

The list is a little weak in mêlée, there's quite a few power fists and servo-arms floating around, but nothing too specialized in assaults. There's also no real anti-air assets, although 36" Heavy Plasma Incinerators combined the Rhino Primaris's Servo-Skull Hub (+1 to hit rolls when shooting) and the bullet-hose of the Redemptor Dreadnought should be decent at chewing up a lighter Flyer. 

You are still marines, so your "weak melee" should be plenty against most opponents. And though the list lacks dedicated melee, you still have enough melee AP to avoid weak units getting ideas (like getting charged by TAU..).

You don't need dedicated AA in 8e. Good BS is all you need (or weapons that auto-hit). 

I have run that Vindicator Stratagem for SM quite a few times this edition (Well, CSM, but the two are identicle). It's amazing and well worth it. The key is that it targets only a spot on the battlefield, so it ignores normal targeting restrictions. Works to hit flyers, kill characters hiding behind titans and so forth. It's also not affected by BS, so you can use it despite major damage to your vindicators. 

[Ish]

Yeah, but it's not Tau or Imperial Guard (or even most vanilla Space Marines) that worries me. It's Khorne Berzerkers, Tyrannid Warriors, Genestealers, and all manner of daemon that are the problem... Just have to hope I can shoot enough of them that by the time they reach my lines, a power fist or two is enough to finish them off.

I tend to look at army list design as a "question and answer" game. Every unit I put on the table is, essentially, asking my opponent questions: what do you think my goal(s) with this unit is? How can you stop it from achieving that goal? How does it threaten your goals? And so forth. Likewise, every unit my opponent fields is asking me questions... and I need to make sure I have unit(s) that will answer those questions.

The "big questions" in WH40k are: How will you score Objectives? How will you prevent your opponent from scoring Objectives? How will you deal with horde infantry / elite infantry / light armor / heavy armor / knights / flyers?

Of those "big questions," the ones that I don't feel that I have three or units of my own that can "answer" them (and answer them well) are Knights and Flyers. I think that between the Librarian's Null Zone, the Primaris Rhino boosted Hellblasters, and the Vindicators, I should be able to handle a Knight or two. Maybe. Likewise, I think that Primaris Rhino boosted Hellblasters and the Redemptor should be able to handle Flyers. 

[Ish]

Quote

 

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?

A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

-- Main Rulebook FAQ v1.13, p. 6

 

Quote

LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase if a Vindicator is within 6" of 2 other friendly <CHAPTER> Vindicators. If you do so, the Vindicators cannot fire their demolisher  cannons this phase – instead, select a visible point on the battlefield within 24" of all three vehicles. (Damage calculations cut for not being relevant. -ISH)

-- Codex Adeptus Astartes: Space Marines, p. 196

So... Am I crazy here or does this mean that if three Vindicators who are all within appropriate distance of one another has Advanced, they can still use the Linebreaker Stratagem? The Linebreaker is used instead of shooting. Wow.

[WestRider]

That does seem to be correct RAW. My gut feeling is that it isn't RAI, but my gut feeling doesn't have any actual authority over 40K Rules.

One of my few complaints about the Rule of Three is that it took Killshot and Linebreaker Bombardment from being niche, but usable, to being almost worthless, since you can't build in redundancy for them anymore.

Also, it's annoying that the Rhino Primaris isn't actually a Primaris Unit. They really need a Rhino Primaris that's just a Rhino that can transport Intercessors and Hellblasters.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ish said:

So... Am I crazy here or does this mean that if three Vindicators who are all within appropriate distance of one another has Advanced, they can still use the Linebreaker Stratagem? The Linebreaker is used instead of shooting. Wow.

You've got it mostly right.

This not "instead of shooting." It does take place in the shooting phase, uses the same range as the Demolisher cannon, and using the stratagem prevents using the demolisher cannons of all three vindicators in this phase, but this is not "instead of shooting". This is just a Stratagem that is used in the shooting phase. 

You are free to combine the stratagem with advances, or smoke launchers, or other shooting from the tanks (just not the demolisher cannons).

I will also note that using this stratagem does not require you to "activate" the vindicators. So you could use the Stratagem, do all your other shooting, then come back to the vindicators and shoot their remaining weaponry (storm bolters and HK missiles, for loyalist marines). You could also do it in the opposite order, provided you don't shoot the demolisher cannons.

55 minutes ago, WestRider said:

One of my few complaints about the Rule of Three is that it took Killshot and Linebreaker Bombardment from being niche, but usable, to being almost worthless, since you can't build in redundancy for them anymore.

Yes and no. I bought 4 vindicators for this edition at the start of 8e. I used them pretty extensively with my chaos. My conclusion was that fielding 4x vindicators was never worth the points. The issue is that they cost as much as an imperial knight, but don't have nearly the tools or survivability of a knight. 

That stratagem is awesome, but for cost, it means that I'm dedicating 375pts (or 500pts if I have 4) into one shot - which makes them very comparable with a knight or other super heavy. 3-4 vindicators is just not equal to 1 knight or 1 baneblade. Doesn't matter how similar they are in points, the superheavies are just substancially better. And it further hurts when Knights or baneblades are given their  house/regimental trait, while my vindicator doesn't benefit from their chapter/legion trait.

The Demolisher cannon, without the stratagem, is perfectly viable. You are basically buying discount lascannons. The weak point on the vindicator is that it takes a penalty on moving and firing and has only 24" of range. If the opponent is coming to you, they are much more viable than if you have to come to your opponent. 

I will note, my vindicators usually charged more times per game than shot. They are offensively terrible in melee, but they are quite durable for cost and tie things up very easily. Never forget that tanks can lock things in melee this edition. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Also, it's annoying that the Rhino Primaris isn't actually a Primaris Unit. They really need a Rhino Primaris that's just a Rhino that can transport Intercessors and Hellblasters.

The Rhino Primaris is a 7e model kit, so it predates the Primaris Space Marine inclusion in the codex.