fluger Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 When your opponent puts things with good armor saves in cover, just... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Flipping the table isn't really my style. I hear you, but I'm still trying to figure out how to do it with marines. I know, responding to myself, but I'm thinking about the marine anti-cover issue. Templars don't have psyker access, so that's a dead end for GG league games. I could start fielding a GK libby with divination, but that's pretty iffy for anti-cover powers. SM do have that Auspex upgrade. Only reduces cover by 1, but that's better than nothing. Does require being within 12", so some potential issues there. A friend suggested those for use with DA and those plasma black knight bikers, one of the few ideas I never did try for my DA/exorcists. Could help, not sure. Whirlwind has that S4 ap5 large blast. Thunderfire has multiple S5 ap6 small blasts. Redeemer with S6 ap3 and horrible range. Sternguard Dragon fire bolts are S4 ap5 rapid fire. Flamer is S4 ap5 and heavy flamer is S5 ap4, both with same issues as per the redeemer. Oh! Could field Legion of the Damned. Hate to bring in another chapter, but they do get anti-cover on stock weapons and can take normal weapons to be included in that. Other option is Purifier squads, which have that psychic power which can hit flyers and ignore cover, but is still S5 ap4. Last, could ignore shooting them in cover, and just assault them in cover. They don't exactly get cover saves in assault. This one goes back to assault related potential issues, but isn't wholly a problematic view. Lol, was just thinking that If I bring GK brother captain stern and SM sternguard in a single list, it will create confusion...Stern and Sternguard, but not Stern's guard. Amusing. Hmm...so Here's a thought. Techmarines. 50pts base for 1 wound models at leadership 8 which come stock with an ap1 power fist and artificer armor. Only 1 swing, but they do have auspex access and 50pts really isn't much different than how much a squad sergeant would cost with a power fist and the vet upgrade. For templars, this is really cool, as artificer is awesome in challenges against ap3 melee weapons and templars are awesome in challenges. As for minotaurs, we don't take morale for shooting, so the vet upgrade is less important...hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Side thought: how wrong would it be to field actual Crusader squads when using Minotaurs to count as Templars? Was just thinking that a big blob might be kinda cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Legion of the Damned would be great, honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Legion of the Damned would be great, honestly. Yeah, I think I'm with you there. Especially with regards to the non-FW games. Though that does create a few potential issues. Okay, most TOs don't allow double CADs, so if I want both objective secured GK troops and a GK warlord, then GK need to be the CAD. That leaves me with Minotaurs as "technically" allies. That's fine, but assault terminators and legion are both elites, so I have to give up one. I can go back to the command squad approach, which isn't a terrible solution, but just mentioning it. I'd love to attach stern to those legion, but legion special rules prohibit being joined by ICs. So, what weapons work with Legion? I'm thinking multi-melta is probably a given, though the plasma cannon is pretty appealing on a slow and purposefull model that denies cover...Plasma in general, is pretty appealing when you can move and fire without issue and freely deny cover. Spendy, though. The flakk missiles do have a certain alure too, without cover to deal with and a reasonably reliable DS into rear arc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I go all Melta on my Legion. Multi-Melta, Meltagun, and a Combi-Melta on the Sarge. For the volume of Special Weapons fire you get per Squad, I find Melta most often makes the biggest difference having Ignores Cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aventine Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 You could just take the Legion as a Legion of the Damned detachment, 1-4 units of Legion as their own detachment... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I've been contemplating running IG with Legion. I really like the models and I really like the fluff and I like the idea of deep-striking, cover-denying marines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 You could just take the Legion as a Legion of the Damned detachment, 1-4 units of Legion as their own detachment... He's already running GK and SM, in environments with a 2 Detachment limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I go all Melta on my Legion. Multi-Melta, Meltagun, and a Combi-Melta on the Sarge. For the volume of Special Weapons fire you get per Squad, I find Melta most often makes the biggest difference having Ignores Cover. Melta does make sense. Main issue I'm seeing with the squad is that being unable to overwatch means that any canny opponent will charge them ASAP. Melta reinforces this idea, as you'd need to be very close when you fire. Unit itself, is too expensive for use merely as a throw away unit and is too expensive to be stuck in melee for lengthy periods of time by cheap units. Since they all have 3++ anyway, a power fist seems really appealing for the sarge. Anyway, very much work in progress, but the 1850 highlander list for Saturday: GK CAD HQ Stern 185 Troops Strike Squad (5, Psycannon,) 125 -Dedicated Razorback (las/plas) 75 Troops Terminators (5, 3 sword+SB, incinerator+Falchion pair, and justicar with SB+falchion pair+MB) 188 -Dedicated LR Redeemer (MM) 250 Allied SM (Minotaurs Chapter Tactics) HQ Enkomi (Crozius Arcanum, Void Hardened Armor) 145 Non slot HQ Techmarine (BP, Auspex) 55 Non slot HQ Command Squad (5, apothecary, 4 vets with SS+Fist+Melta gun) 295 -Dedicated Drop Pod 35 Elites Mortis Dreadnought (Dual TL Lascannons) 145 Troops Tactical (5, Lascannon) 90 Fast Land Speeder (1, MM) 60 Heavy Devastators (10, 2x Las, 2x MM) 200 Total should be 1848, I say should because my copy of battle scribe has been constantly misreporting the point costs of various upgrades. Enkomi, in example, is 10pts more expensive at base cost, than the current rules regard. The rapier batteries also don't have to pay to upgrade their quad heavy bolters to laser destroyers, despite current rules in IA:2 requiring a 15pt increase. Only a single AA unit (mortis dread). Flyer spam will hurt. Should be mostly fine otherwise. I think I really hate the highlander format...though it could just be not having enough fully assembled units of varied types. On a side note, Enkomi gives that unit Rage, in addition to being a power fist wielding Interogator chappy for minotaurs SM. Basic plan is to drop down in the pod with all three ICs and the command squad. Use psychic powers to grant sanctuary and hammer (and maybe force too), use techmarine auspex to lower cover, then melta, and watch the opponent decide if the pod unit is better to charge or be charged by (with more melta prior to the charge). Unit boasts 14 power fist swings (including servo arm) without the charge and at S10 with the hammer. On the charge, jumps to 26 fist swings. Re-rolls to hit with chappy. Should be enough to destroy most knights and thunderwolf cavalry type opposition, even if invisible. D weapons and stomps still present an issue, but there reall is only so much than can be done on that end. Rest of the army is by no means less lethal, but certainly less melee oriented. For objective secured, I've got 5, including the two dedicated transports. Thoughts or suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I like the general idea of this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I like the general idea of this list. Huh...I typically get constructive criticism. Weird, he likes the list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think the honor guard is way over-equipped, but I get what you're going for. For the theme and style you're going for, I see what you have as useful tools in a tool box. I don't think this list is a threat to win LVO, but I think you could get some fun mileage out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think the honor guard is way over-equipped, but I get what you're going for. For the theme and style you're going for, I see what you have as useful tools in a tool box. I don't think this list is a threat to win LVO, but I think you could get some fun mileage out of it. Not even for LVO, it's that Ordo Anhiliation thing. FW legal, unlimited detachments, no list screening, highlander event....yeah, really iffy on what will show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think the honor guard is way over-equipped, but I get what you're going for. For the theme and style you're going for, I see what you have as useful tools in a tool box. I don't think this list is a threat to win LVO, but I think you could get some fun mileage out of it. But over equipped? What would you give them? I'm trying to capitalize on Stern using sancturary for the 2++, then I've got the apothecary to get a bit of extra mileage out of that. Power fists might be overkill, but I've face those thunderwolves enough times at events where I find I do need something crazy like this to counter them. Deathstar-wise this unit is actually rather cheap... Regular TH/SS terminators would work, but as elites, I needed that slot for the mortis dread. They also lack FNP and pod access. I do think Stern is a somewhat lacking character for something like the LVO. No AT options, only a 4++, and lacks eternal warrior. Warlord trait is also lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 The big problem is that while they are survivable and hard hitting, they are slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 The big problem is that while they are survivable and hard hitting, they are slow. Agree completely. Only real solution in my list would be to "scoop" them into the Objective secured Land Raider Redeemer, which will hold them, but they can't start inside of. I could also detach stern and put them in the razorback, but that suffers the same issue with dedicated transports. And I don't want to lose the dedicated transport status because it would mean they lose objective secured. Issue, more or less, is that stern is in TDA, but that I need him if I want that sanctuary combo. Only GK characters with access to sanctuary (randomly or otherwise) are in TDA. The GK techmarine (artificer) can technically get it, with a further 25pt upgrade, but it is still a 1 in 6 chance and he is non-slot. My Minotaurs could, but that requires the same randomness, uses the HQ slot, and would perils on any double as per normal daemonology. Now, if going unlimited detachments or unbound, I could take a DW command squad with TH/SS and the TDA apothecary, but the cost really isn't much cheaper (60pts cheaper for 4x DW TH/SS terms and 1x DW apothecary instead of command squad with pod). Still doesn't solve any speed issues and I lose the melta guns on the drop. Plus now I need chappy and techmarine with jump packs or other DS option, or they can't arrive together. I do like the pod approach better than the TDA DS, not only for the mishap issues, but because the 6" disembark means you can spread out on the drop and still shoot. It also makes for more IC options for the command squad. I have thought about this... A dedicated land raider or SR could solve this, though that's another 200+pts, isn't objective secured, and often means more turns prior to contributing to the army. Now, we could drop stern. He's very spendy, but most of the GK HQ options are also very spendy. Could even drop the GK altogether. Does open and shut some doors. Could make the Minotaurs the CAD and GK allied, as before, but that also creates some issues. Enkomi does have a pretty awesome warlord trait, escepcially for the drop unit... (enemies within 12" must use lowest leadership value in the unit, instead of highest...goodbye IG orders....) I will note that while stern isn't great, he does have that personal re-roll once per phase (at high cost) which has denied the enemy the slain warlord, once or twice. Most of his special rules cater to facing daemons, which aren't in every list, so there is that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Okay, got a 5-man strike squad now (Thanks chappy!). Didn't have it before in models (have interceptors and a few other GK units, but no strike squads due to past conversions/army cannibalism). So, could run stern allied with the puny strike squad instead of the GK terms. Would free up many points, though would also lose the dedicated Land Raider (freeing up many, many points). This would prevent Stern from being warlord. Would make the Minotaurs the CAD, which would need to fill both troops slots and the HQ. Would also need to provide the warlord from those Minotaurs. Not sure if that SS command squad remains viable if I have extra elite slots... Now, one thing I could do is take Moloc, our Minotaurs chapter master. He's extremely expensive (235pts) and has his own issues, but most notably he grants preferred enemy (SM+DA+BA+SW) to the entire detachment. He also, selfishly, makes only his unit fearless and makes them ignore intiative penalties for charging. Lastly, he makes other detachments of his preferred enemy count as desperate allies (note how GK are not on the list). In terms of downsides, he, like stern, has a sheer lack of AT options. Downer for me, is that Moloc has a fixed strength weapon, so won't benefit much from Stern, other than to gain the 2++. He is otherwise perfect for slaughtering just about any type of opponent in melee. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Okay, 1900pt list for tonight a GG league. CAD SM (Black Templars) HQ Emperor's Champion (Warlord) HQ Chappy (MB+Auspex) Non-Slot HQ Command Squad (5, Apothecary, 4 vets with SS+Fist+MG) -Pod Troops Scouts (10, Vet with Fist) Troops Tactical (5, ML with Flakk, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Troops Tactical (5, ML with Flakk, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Fast Land Speeder (1, Heavy Flamer) Heavy Devastators (10, 2 las, 2 MM, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Heavy Devastators (10, 2 las, 2 MM, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Heavy Thunderfire Cannon Allied GK HQ Stern Troops Strike (5, Psycannon) Razorback (Las/Plas) Total should be 1900pts. Been having issues with fleeing backfield marines (sad, right?), hence the lots of vets, plus templars chapter tactics really favor challenges. Idea is to split the devs via combat squads. Speeder is light on weapons because I couldn't find points I wanted to give up, yet I really wanted to field the speeder model... Planing to proxy that "over equipped" command squad to see if I get decent results or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Okay, 1900pt list for tonight a GG league. CAD SM (Black Templars) HQ Emperor's Champion (Warlord) HQ Chappy (MB+Auspex) Non-Slot HQ Command Squad (5, Apothecary, 4 vets with SS+Fist+MG) -Pod Troops Scouts (10, Vet with Fist) Troops Tactical (5, ML with Flakk, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Troops Tactical (5, ML with Flakk, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Fast Land Speeder (1, Heavy Flamer) Heavy Devastators (10, 2 las, 2 MM, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Heavy Devastators (10, 2 las, 2 MM, Vet with BP+CCW+MB) Heavy Thunderfire Cannon Allied GK HQ Stern Troops Strike (5, Psycannon) Razorback (Las/Plas) Total should be 1900pts. Let's see....Fail. Yeah, aside from losing last night, I also played really poorly. Just made mistakes where I knew better and such. Lost the game and the moral victory, I thought. Just fail. I did have some fun, but I felt somewhat bad after, just because I know I didn't play my best (I play to play, so not playing my best is the only way I "lose"). Opponent wasn't at fault. Anyway, game was Contact Lost, and opponent was Harry's Salamanders. Tons and tons of melta, flamers and power fists. So, unit by unit: Land Speeder was just fail. Heavy flamered once, which failed to wound....Salamander's didn't even need their save re-rolls, I got 4x 1s and a the last one saved his armor. Thunderfire was also fail. Bad target selection. I put it out of TLOS and that really didn't help. Command Squad+Stern+chappy+emperor's champion was mostly fine, but Sanctuary failed twice and my storm shields kept rolling 1s for saves. Power fists were not practical and never got to swing at anything - even got assaulted by a dread, which took a glance from the emperor's champion (hammer hand for S6) and then was destroyed by the chappy's Crozius Arcanum. Main issue was that this unit didn't land anywhere near my opponent's deathstar, which was sad, and left both units lacking (unit butchered like 5+ units, but nothing that could fight back..). Auspex was forgotten. Devs were placed poorly. I really missed my pipeline 4+ cover. Didn't bring it because of the lack of flamers. Las/plas razor did fine, but had a lack of decent targets for most of the game. Terrain TLOS issues. Strike squad popped a few shots off, but then got BBQed by vulkan. Scouts didn't split and should have. Destroyed a single rhino, then got butchered by vulkan. My mood was also very lacking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 So...1850 Highlander list...: CAD Minotaurs HQ Master of the Forge (Auspex) Troops Scouts (5, 4x CCW+BP, 1x Vet+PW+BP) Troops Tactical (5, 4x Bolters, 1x Vet+PW+BP) Heavy Land Raider Helios (Hyperious Air Defense Missile Launcher) Heavy Land Raider Achilles LoW Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer (Armored Ceramite) Allied GK HQ Stern Troops Terminators (5, 5x SB+sword) -Dedicated Land Raider Redeemer (MM) Total 1850... I would probably have a lot of fun with this list, but I'm not sure if anyone else would. Probably an easy win for FMC armies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 With all those tanks maybe just run Iron hands so that they all get the It will not Die (I think thats what it's called?) also gives all your guys 6+ FNP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 With all those tanks maybe just run Iron hands so that they all get the It will not Die (I think thats what it's called?) also gives all your guys 6+ FNP Yeah...so plan is to use the Minotaurs Chapter tactics. I'm not about to change paint themes again.... Anyway, above is, more or less, a joke army. It would be destroyed really quickly, unless opponent just couldn't cope with AV14 (would do fine against bad lists/players, basically). I was just in an impatient/frustrated mood after the game previously, so I posted that really simple list. Been thinking about the nature of the Ordo Anhililation event. I can't see a reason to stick with normal list building procedure. I think I'll field a double CAD, as it appears that I'll be wanting lots of objective secured and I really want GK to be my warlord. Found various bits within my enormous bits bin(s). I'm thinking I can field either a 3-gun Rapier Quad Heavy bolter team or a 2-gun rapier laser destroyer team. If you haven't seen the rules, quad heavy bolters are 6 shot TL heavy bolters, so unit would pump out 18 TL heavy bolter shots. Laser destroyers are TL lascannons with the ordnance rule and 12" less of range. So, laser destroyers are basically 2 lascannons which re-roll hits and pens without assistance. Probably go with laser destroyers, as that will pull away from my disadvantage from not having duplicate devastator squads like I'd normally bring. Hmmm...How about this one? GK CAD HQ Libby Troops Strike (5, psycannon) -Dedicated Razor (Las/plas) Troops Terminators (5) -Dedicated LRR (MM) Minotaurs SM CAD HQ Libby Elites Mortis Dread (Dual TL Lascannons) Troops Scouts (5) Troops Tactical (5, combi-melta, melta gun) -Dedicated Drop Pod Heavy Thunderfire Cannon Heavy Rapier Weapons Battery (2 laser destroyers) Heavy Devastators (5, 4 lascannons) LoW Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer (Armored Ceramite) Not sure I like it on a lot of levels, but it would be able to snag objectives and should be at least a bit difficult to cope with. Warlord would be GK libby or GK justicar, as I have objective cards only for GK at the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I wasn't saying repaint at all. you can always say you are a off shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I wasn't saying repaint at all. you can always say you are a off shoot. I understand what you meant, but that isn't something I want to do. This thread is about my "Minotaurs" and I intend to use their chapter tactics, when I can. I don't mean to be rude, just frank. I do agree, from a competitive standpoint, certain chapter tactics would would make for a superior army. I'm not the sort of player that supports codex hopping which was one of the major reasons I stopped playing Exorcists, as they lack consistent chapter tactics. The GG league was allowing FW chapter tactics, so the switch to my present Minotaurs was reasonable. The GG league has since changed their stance, hence the Black Templars, which I find have the closest chapter tactics to my Minotaurs. I don't mean to codex hop if I don't have to, so any event which allows FW will see Minotaurs chapter tactics without question. Prior to the current SM codex, chapter tactics were more optional, so it wasn't something that created issues for my Exorcists in prior editions. Does that all make sense? As for Black Templars Vs Minotaurs, both have the Crusader USR and that is really the only way they are related, but it's a rule that has lots of impact in random areas of the game, so being able to practice it helps keep the Minotaurs rules fresh. As for the other aspects, the BT tactics lend themselves to both a melee focused army and to an army where boosted characters are more impressive. The minotaurs, on the other hand, are more suited having backfield ranged units without character upgrades, and instead, to have dedicated melee units. So, in example, a Black Templars Devastator Squad would likely have a veteran sergeant with at least bolt pistol and close combat weapon, as the black templar chapter tactics would make challenges within melee very appealing for even a devastator sergeant. On Minotaurs, I'd more likely have the devastator sergant without the veterant upgade and just a bolter, as my chapter tactics limit the viability of improved leadership for unit leaders against ranged attacks (no morale checks for shooting and re-roll pinning checks). That said, the Minotaurs do have a boosted +1" on charges in the enemy deployment zone, so having dedicated melee units which can reach the enemy deployment zone quickly is very logical - Obviously, this last one is very well reflected by my army lists, as I've been having difficulty finding the ideal assault units and, likewise, getting the models ready for it. I'll likely be getting some Jump Pack Vanguard or Assault marines at some point, but presently, I lack the models (I very likely have them in bits...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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