Pax's Imperial Army (expanded topic from minotaur/exorcist thread)

[Guest]

Looking at that AM codex. I'm thinking that AM+DA+GK would be pretty strong, if I can get the ratios right. Should have the right mix of numbers, durability, and offensive power for a proper TACT list in 7th. If I can figure it out, that'll be my list for that upcoming annihilation event (daemons won't be done in time).

 

For GG league, looking at AM+DA+GK+Skitarii for my Imperial army.

 

Other thoughts:

 

-With 3 detachments, getting a DA command squad up to 10-man (or higher) is actually attainable with ICs. A horrible mess of KP, but there is a certain appeal to this. Biggest fault in the DA command squads in that they are too few in number (5) to justify their high cost upgrade options (like 80-ish pt banners that are amazing).

 

-NEED to field Leman Russes, if only to add a name plate to each that dub's it a "Lion El Jonson <tank type>". Lion El Jonson Vanquisher, in example. Great way to add fluff while also sticking it to those SW players....Only the fluffy players will get the reference, of course.

 

-With Ravenwing (mass TP homers stock), the nemesis strike force + normal DS is enough for the dreadknight. He doesn't need the Personal teleporter, especially with the heavy psycannon.

 

-Need one combat monster IC. I need to be able to cope with enemy combat monster ICs and MCs. Brotherhood champion is a specialist of challenges, but not a monster otherwise. Eternal warrior is not a must, as D weapons make that one less impressive, and most MCs have enough attacks to make eternal warrior lacking.

 

-AM have that "augur array" upgrade, which is basically a locator beacon. Obvious applications for DA and GK with that one. In particular, looks like the scout sentinel could take one. So, if I go first, could scout forward 6" and drop a turn 1 drop pod within 6" of that, then a unit within 6" of that. Should allow a single pod to arrive pretty close to the enemy without error. Not sure if viable on the sentinel, as it's otherwise a free KP/first blood.

[Guest]

Pax, use the edit function. All of the double. triple, quadruple posts make it hard to follow and just looks obnoxious.

You'd prefer an extremely long wall of text?

 

I find the dividers make it easier to read. They also serve to separate posts which are only somewhat on the same topic.

[Guest]

I guess it doesn't really matter, I don't read your inane ramblings anyway. Just a preference.

Yeah, this thread is definitely ramblings. That's the whole point of having it all in one spot, rather than having a dozen threads scattered across the boards.

 

If it doesn't really matter, I'm not about to change it.

[pretre]

Pax, use the edit function. All of the double. triple, quadruple posts make it hard to follow and just looks obnoxious.

Hey! I make double, triple and quadruple posts.

 

Are you oppressing ramblers?

[Guest]

Okay, few more:

 

-DA have an "Unrelenting Hunt" dataslate, which is most certainly iffy, but it would notably affect a PA libby, a PA Company Master and a Tactical Squad, giving them the relentless USR. Very expensive formation, not because of extra costs, but becomes of the other units required: DW terminators, DW Knights, RW attack Squadron, RW Knights, and a Dark Talon. Very notably, none of these would be objective secured and all of the extra units are already relentless. Doubtfully worthwhile, but worth looking into if fielding most of those units anyway.

 

-That Eldar thread regarding the new biker Scatter lasers and misfortune, has me thinking about Misfortune+psilencers/punishers. I wonder if I could get them to work...

 

-I am re-thinking the Punisher Vengeance Weapon Battery. I had originally dismissed it due to it's poor ability to hit targets via BS2 and it's automated fire forcing it to target the nearest unit. Prescience could work there, and DA have stock access to divination (as do GK and some of the AM psykers). They are really neat looking models...

[pretre]

The vengeance are excellent models and go well with the Firestorm (mix match turrets). I love them.

[Guest]

The vengeance are excellent models and go well with the Firestorm (mix match turrets). I love them.

Have you run the FSR with Punishers? Viable? I could use that to increase the BS of the guns to BS3, plus they are now one target for Presicence. Still, +80pts(+psykers), making Punisher Pask a bit more appealing.

[pretre]

Have you run the FSR with Punishers? Viable? I could use that to increase the BS of the guns to BS3, plus they are now one target for Presicence. Still, +80pts(+psykers), making Punisher Pask a bit more appealing.

Negative, I ran Battle Cannon turrets at Ordo Open two years ago and they did great work. I've run the Lascannon Vengeance and Firestorm as well and that did pretty good work. I think the Magos MS is pretty important for the Firestorm though.

 

I haven't really needed Volume of Fire for my SOB army, so never ran the punishers.

[Guest]

Negative, I ran Battle Cannon turrets at Ordo Open two years ago and they did great work. I've run the Lascannon Vengeance and Firestorm as well and that did pretty good work. I think the Magos MS is pretty important for the Firestorm though.

 

I haven't really needed Volume of Fire for my SOB army, so never ran the punishers.

Yeah, I've done the battle cannon ones and they are viable. Can't shoot at flyers or invisible units though, so very limited targets in some lists.

 

Lascannon ones can be viable, but often aren't. Really depends on the opponent. They took a major hit in 7th when skyfire+interceptor started needing 6s to hit ground targets. That primary target rule is nifty on the FSR, but the vengeance batteries don't have it, so they get stuck shooting the nearest target, instead of flyers.

 

Still, thinking about rolling divination for GK and DA psykers. If I can get presceince and misfortune, these punishers would getting viable, I think.

 

Any clue, Is a build a scoring unit? EDIT: Looked it up. "Claimed" buildings are scoring units. Wow. Definitely going with the Vengeance Batteries.

[pretre]

Yeah, you get two hard to kill scoring units for pretty cheap.

[pretre]

And I haven't run the vengeance since 6th. Ran Firestorm in 7th and it was, as you said, a bit lackluster.

[Guest]

As I recall, the key with the vengeance is that if you already have a lot of AV14, they tend to get ignored, but if they are the only hard AV target, they destroyed rather quickly.

 

Anyway, was just thinking that my lists tend to lack volume fire, plus between divination psykers and those rad-grenade launchers, I should be able to make these guys viable.

 

The other temptation, is to figure out if I can make the psilencers viable. Eternal warrior is a lot less common than it used to be and they'd deny FNP.

 

So psilencers vs thunderwolves. With stock weapon, you'd fire 6 shots, hit 4 times, and wound 1.33 times. Thunderwolves then die on 1-2 for saves, with or without storm shields (3+ armor or 3++). So I'd need at least 3 psilencers, just to kill one thunderwolf.

 

By comparison, psycannon would have 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds, 0.74 unsaved wounds. So, I'd need 3 psycannons to reliably inflict the 2 wounds that I recall the thunderwolves having. These do rend, so if thunderwolves lack a storm shield, they'd lose an extra wound 1/6, but that won't really help here,

 

Hmmm....might be able to get them to work. If we rad charge(or enfeeble) the thunderwolves, the psycannon remains unchanged, but the psilencers wound 2 times each, meaning I only need 2 psilencers to kill one.

 

Mind you, this assumes either stationary PA GK or TDA GK. Moving fire is very lacking on PA GK with psycannons, but even more lacking with psilencers. Plus psycannons are viable against vehicles and psilencers are not.

[Guest]

Pax, use the edit function. All of the double. triple, quadruple posts make it hard to follow and just looks obnoxious.

Oh, the other thing is that if posting quickly, a new post will grant the other users a "show new posts" option, but editing won't. So if I add lots of points to a previous post, but they still have the prior version loaded, then they are only replying to that initial post. Really wish it would show a "see edited posts" option. Can really mess with quotations.

[Guest]

Back to the punisher/psilencer topic. Guardian games does play with invisibility causing snapfire. Doesn't seem to come up much, but it's one of those things that the list needs to be able to cope with.

 

Psilencers snapping (either via move and fire PA) against T5 with 3+ save. 6 shots. 1 hit. .33 wounds. 0.11 unsaved. I'd need 10 of them to realistically kill a single T5 opponent like this. I say kill, as it is still instant death.

 

Sake of arguement, they are a 15pt upgrade for terminators (and ICs), a 10pt upgrade for PA, and 30pts for the heavy version which is functionally 2 of them (heavy 12 instead of heavy 6). Cheapest format is likely the purgation squads, able to take 4 of them at 150pts. So 8 of them would be, at least 300pts in two heavy slots, then you'd have another via a required troops slot (Squad+10 or +15) and another via a required HQ slot (IC+15).

 

Before you say that planning to snap would be absurd against a T5 opponent with an S4 ap- weapon, bear in mind that this could be very commonly a daemon prince or flyrant (T6), either of which being expensive enough to justify such a tactic. They only need to fail a single save, and the instant death nails them.

 

Mind you, the odds of successfully casting force that many times is iffy. Plus none of these weapons are viable against vehicles.

 

I will also note that the purgation squad is a horrible unit. Not only does it compete for heavy slots with the dreadknights, but it can't deep strike or otherwise get into position very easily. It is also paying points for night vision, despite having no weapon with longer than 24" of range.

[Guest]

Okay, so another topic of interest for me, is that I want to squeeze in a psyker with psychic hood. Ideally a high level one. I want him to be able to ride in a land raider for some games (literally, able to ride in, doesn't need to be a combat monster, just not on a bike or similar option that prevents transportation).

 

DA has level 1 at 65pts, and level 2 at 100pts. TDA is +30pts

 

Eziekel is level 3 at 145pts. Artificer armor only.

 

GK Libby is level 2 for 110pts and level 3 for 135pts. TDA only. Adamantium will via nemisis warding stave, if wanted.

 

The notes regarding armor are there, as it does matter for transportation. TDA is bulky, while PA and Artificer are not. DA psykers are fearless, while GK version is not fearless. GK version does have the aegis, while DA version lacks it. Eziekel lacks an invunerable save. DA psykers have loads of invulnerable access, in both PA and TDA. GK psyker has only the 5++ access, though can upgrade for FNP and IWND rather affordably. Eziekiel has 3 wounds, while the others have only 2 wounds.

 

My plan is to roll divination with either version of psyker, so santic daemonology doesn't play into it.

[Guest]

Okay, so got that answer I wanted regarding psychic disiplines. I think I'm going to test Ezekiel.

 

He's got Mindworm by default, which is a somewhat lacking psychic power, but does present a nifty bike killing option, as it is basically smite with less shots and ignores cover. He is BS 5, so at least the shots won't be wasted with misses.

 

Ezekiel has a item which grants +1 WS to DA units within 6". This means that the army leans towards him being attached to a DA unit. In melee, he really isn't very impressive, but he does have a S:user melee weapon, so at least he can benefit from hammerhand. He has the inner circle rule too, so he adds fearless and Preferred enemy CSM to whatever unit he joins.

 

Ezekiel is in Artificer armor, not TDA, so there is an advantage regarding sweeps, to placing him in a unit with other non-TDA models.

 

Ezekiel's fixed warlord trait is most lacking, merely granting +1 VP to killing the enemy warlord with his unit/him in assault.

 

Now, as I plan to roll divination, we have a new set of things to consider:

 

Of the 7 powers, 1 selfishly only affects the psyker, 2 affect the psyker's unit, 2 bless friendly units, 1 malediction on enemy units, and one affects army reserves and objective related army aspects.

 

So, of the 2 that affect the psyker's unit, both are enhanced by having a shooty unit attached to the psyker.

 

At present, I lean towards a tactical squad, or similar DA unit attached to Ezekiel. They'd benefit from the +1 WS, from the divination, and can still sweep. Troops remain mandatory for DA detachment options. I can also field them in a large enough squad so as to fill a land raider, unlike a DA command Squad (max 5, so wasted space).

 

Now, if I take GK and AM allies, what units can add to this?

 

Only GK ICs without TDA are the brotherhood champion and the techmarine. Both add quite a bit of cost to the unit. Both are psykers with hammerhand access. The GK techmarine brings a servo harness's Melee AT, which would very much add to the unit. The Brotherhood champion brings challenge protection, which isn't a horrible call given Eziekel's lack of invulnerable save. The Techmarine has wargear access, but no invulnerable save, while the champion lacks wargear access, but has an invulnerable save. The techmarine is base 90pts with 1 wound, while the champion is base 150pts with 2 wounds.

 

A third option would be Crowe, the GK special character Brotherhood champion. He notably costs even more than the champion, at 175pts. He very much provides challenge protection, but is distinctly lacking in non-challenges, having no method to deny armor in non-challenge melee. He is a level 2 psyker, with stock hammer hand and cleansing flame. He also has nifty warlord trait which grants hammer of wrath to his unit, which would be viable with the projected Tactical Squad-like unit. He is a combat monster in challenges.

 

On the AM line, we've got a Ministorum priest, an Enginseer, a lord commissar, a primaris psyker, and commissar yarrick.

 

The Priest is mostly lacking as an attachment for marines without invulnerable saves, but is dirt cheap, so has some merit. The Enginseer is entirely lacking, being worse in all stats over a DA techmarine, despite only 10pt price discount. The Lord commissar doesn't add anything. Yarrick is nifty, but also doesn't really add. The primaris psyker does have biomancy access, but otherwise doesn't bring anything to the table.

 

hmmm...

 

So, sake of argument, we take a full 10-man tactical squad at 140pts. Ezekiel adds 145pts. Looking at 285pts as is. If we add crowe, it becomes 460pts. That's a deathstar that really isn't... Add the intended Land Raider, which would need to be at least a redeemer, and its 700-ish pts (700 for GK LRR, 705pts for DA LRR, both have the same cost LRC if going that route, so 710pts for either).

 

Though, that said, if fielding the DA and the GK anyway, the only unit that isn't mandatory for detachments, is the redeemer. I also don't have to field any of these units together, as the tactical can combat squad then the LRR remains non-dedicated. I do like having my options. Hmm...

 

So if Nemesis Strike Force and Allied DA,  I'd need a strike squad or GK TDA unit, but I'd otherwise have a complete army requirements (assuming I don't field AM. If I did, I'd need at least another HQ and troops via AM). Hmmm....

 

Nemesis Strike Force

 

HQ Crowe

Troops Strike Squad (5, Incinerator)

-Razorback (Las/Plas, Dozer)

Heavy Land Raider Redeemer

 

Allied DA

HQ Eziekel

Troops Tactical Squad (10, MG, MM, CCW+BP+MB)

-Razorback (Las/Plas, Dozer)

 

Total: 1k even.

 

A good amount of list flexibility, yes, but still really expensive for what it is. Basically 17 models for 1k....

 

Mind you, I've still got 650pts for the GG league and 850pts for the Annihilation event. Lots of ways to multiple numbers in that, especially with AM allies.

 

Hmmm....

[Guest]

Grr, such a balancing act... The above is just too many points.

[Guest]

Okay, continuing to analyze the books.

 

Issue I keep having with DA is that their book is really like a dozen types of really specialized armies all presented as one army. Each unit or upgrade lends itself to an entire army kitted around it. That said, some kits work well together, while others are counter productive.

 

In example, that darkshroud is an amazing cover-tank unit. If I take that, then all units with already decent cover options become very viable. That's things with jink and smoke launchers and camo cloaks. That said, it's really expensive if I don't include units to capitalize off it's wonderful cover enhancements.

 

Another is the power field generator. A very neat option for armies which desire invulnerable saves on things that don't typically have them. Vehicles and units with Sanctuary, in particular, though any PA infantry can also benefit.

 

Now you don't really want both the power field generator and the darkshroud. They really just add to saves and are mutually exclusive, so investing in both is likely a foolish approach. Both are expensive enough where they make the army rapidly obsolete if too much of the army is spend on these defensive upgrades.

 

Same issue with terminator troops, venerable land raiders, and banners of FNP. DA have lots of redundant methods to make things more durable, but fielding all the methods will stunt the army.

 

In general, I think the DA codex is really strong, but has this horrible learning curve regarding it's overly specialized nature.

[Guest]

Another is the RW grenade launchers. You've got the rad charge which is a ranged blast that causes -1 T for the turn. It has an alternate fire mode that causes -1 WS and -1 initiative for the turn. Each one of these is like it's own army built around it.

 

-1 initiative means that army could build a unit to strike an imperial knight down in initiative order, by lowering it to initiative 3, so it swings after the normal marines. Another application could be via powers which call for an initiative test, like blinding, hit & run, or sweeping advance.

 

-1 toughness means that s10(and D weapons) can instant death toughness 6. s8-9 weapons can ID toughness 5, s6-7 can ID toughness 4 and so forth. Also enables weaker weapons to have higher odds to wound things. Last, has a pretty huge impact on toughness tests.

 

These grenades are mounted on the RW knights and RW command squads, them being equipped with TL plasma, rending s5 melee, and teleportation homers. It is notable that the Initiative reduction can also be accomplished via the Dark Talon, which are -3 WS and -3 initiative, but only once per battle.

 

So, if I wanted to capitalize on the -1 Toughness, I'd want weapons that had high strength or had sheer volume fire, ideally weapons with even numbers for strength. In particular S 6, 8 and 10 become the ideal. The -1 toughness also makes poisoned/sniper weapons less impressive, as their ability to ignore toughness is counter productive for the list. Power fists, power mauls, and hammer hand start becoming musts for melee.

 

I could also focus on the lowered initiative. This could even break down in two sub grounds, the lowered initiative for initiative tests and the lowered initiative for melee.

 

On initiative tests, the DA options are mostly limited to blinding, but there are other factions which could be allied to make very impressive use of initiative test nerfing.

 

On the melee end, weapons which strike in initiative order and units with high initiative come to the forefront of viability. Unwieldy weapons become distinctly more lacking. Swords, mauls, and krak grenades become extremely viable, while fists, axes and melta bombs become dramatically less impressive.

[WestRider]

Going way back up to your notes about the Purgation Squad, Night Vision is still potentially useful for them despite the 24" Range, because the effects of Night Fight no longer vary with Range.

[Guest]

Going way back up to your notes about the Purgation Squad, Night Vision is still potentially useful for them despite the 24" Range, because the effects of Night Fight no longer vary with Range.

Yes, you are correct. Totally missed that. A bit more useful for 1 turn per game (longer if necrons can still force night).

[Guest]

Tinkering still. A funny thought occurred: AM veterans with demolition training in a land raider. If they charged an imperial knight, the knight should swing first and kill about half the squad, but the remaining half should do pretty major damage to that knight...It's a really dirt cheap unit for something like this.

[Guest]

Let's see, Imperial knight should be 5 base swings, I think, with a 6th on the charge. 3.33 hits, 2.77 dead vets. That leaves about 7 melta bombs striking simultaneously with the stomp attacks. Vets hit on 4s and, with melta rule, almost auto-pen. So, 3 pens or so. Being AP1, +2 to the roll, so average of 2 normal pens and 1 explodes result, so 3+d3 HP to the knight. That is pretty solid for a 90pt unit, even if it requires getting wiped in the process and requires a spendy transport (which does not necessarily get wiped as well).

[Guest]

A few things.

 

A) Levitation(telekinesis) is much better a psychic power than I had originally conceived. After re-reading the psychic powers in relation to my AM+GK+DA issues, it finally hit me: The 12" move is done in the psychic phase, after moving normally in the movement phase. So, a deep striking unit can land in the movement phase, then move an extra 12" right before the shooting phase. The main drawback of not being able to assualt, isn't really a drawback via the psychic power because the deep striking units can't assault anyway.

 

Two major applications: First is to land outside LOS to interceptor weapons, then units 12" move to reposition back into LOS. Second would be to use the extra movement for a more exact landing, one not subject to normal DS limitations (like scattering mishap), allowing units to really land behind enemy lines. So the classic DS defense of hiding in a corner can be negated by DSing 13" from edge, then using levitation to get into melta range.

 

B) AM command squad with master of ordnance can benefit from a divination psyker and AM transports can hold terminators. So

HQ Company command (Master of Ordance) 80pts

-Dedicated Taurox (Camo Netting) 65pts

Total 145pts. 

 

Been trying to figure out what to do with the AM mandatory HQ slot anyway, and many of the options are mostly redundant with DA/GK allies, or have lacking effect with a minimal AM infantry section. Love the tank commanders, but they really drive up the army cost. Plus most of the GK HQ options require TDA, which can be problematic if you don't have spare transports and don't want to yield the DW assault rules.

[WestRider]

I'd toss on an extra 30 Points to give those DemoVets Meltaguns. Those should be able to put on another HP or three, all but guaranteeing the Knight's destruction, and you're still at like a third of the cost of the Knight.

 

Levitation is also nice against foes who don't have Interceptor, but do have lots of Blasts/Templates. Lets you spread out without giving up your shooting or risking a 1" Run leaving you still pretty badly clumped.