Pax's Imperial Army (expanded topic from minotaur/exorcist thread)

[Guest]

Hmm...

 

1650pts GG League for Wednesday

 

GK Nemesis Strike Force

HQ Librarian (Warding Stave)

Troops Strike Squad (5, Psycannon)

Heavy Nemesis Dreadknight (Psilencer, Sword, Teleporter, Warlord)

 

Allied DA

HQ Librarian (Level 2, Force Sword+BP)

Troops Tactical Squad (8, Melta gun, Plas Pistol+CCW)

-Dedicated Drop Pod

Fast Attack Black Knights (5, Grenade Launcher)

Heavy Land Raider Redeemer (Deathwing Vehicle)

 

Allied AM

HQ Company Command Squad (5, Mortar team, Master of Ordnance)

-Dedicated Taurox (Camo Netting)

Troops Vets (10, Demolitions, 3x Melta Guns)

Heavy Support "Lion El Jonson" Executioner (Plasma sponsons, Relic Plating)

 

Total 1650pts

 

Lots of test units. Low numbers. No dedicated AA. No dedicated Melee deathstar/tarpit. A flawed list, to be sure. Yet, I've got a good feeling about it. Strange. Should be interesting.

 

Vets go in the Redeemer. The ICs have 3 potential units they can join, depending on psychic powers rolled (Vets in the LRR, Company command in the Taurox, or the Tactical in the Pod).

[Guest]

Decided that 3 allies doesn't work well enough at this point level. Might go back, we'll see.

 

1650pt list for GG league this Wednesday:

 

DA CAD

HQ Company Master (Combi-Melta, Infravisor)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Melta Gun, Combi-Melta)

-Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Plasma Cannon)

Fast Attack Black Knights (4, 1x Grenade Launcher)

Heavy Support Land Raider

Fort Vengeance Weapon Battery (2, Battle Cannons)

 

Allied AM

HQ Tank Commander Squadron

-"Lion El Jonson" Executioner (Command Tank, Pask, Relic Plating, Hull Heavy Flamer)

-"Lion El Jonson" Demolisher (Hull Heavy Flamer)

Troops Veterans (10, Demolitions)

Fast Attack Scout Sentinels (2, 2x Heavy Flamer)

Heavy Deathstrike (Hull Heavy Flamer)

 

Total 1650pts

 

Still not perfect. I think it's getting closer to a solid list (for me). I'll probably bring something similar to the Annihilation event (but 200pts more, of course).

 

General idea of the list is to have lots of units that need to die turn 1, from the opponent's perspective. Or rather, idea is to have very few units that can be ignored. I've found that this approach can disrupt many well thought out armies.

 

Vets embark on the LR. LEJs (Lion El Jonsons), land raiders and vengeance batteries are all AV 14, so 4 targets to mess with target priority for opponent's dedicated AT units. The Deathstrike often gets the attention of dedicated AT units too, despite rarely being all that impressive.

 

Vengeance Batteries hold objectives and otherwise annoy the opponent in how durable they are. They'll likely deploy in cover and I'll be using fire lanes to have some control over their shooting.

 

I love the normal LRs. Some opponents, it will be ideal to sit back and shoot, while others I'll want to deliver the vets to melee range. Vets are deliberately a dirt cheap unit to keep their lack of presence in some games to a minimum. Vets have objective secured too.

 

LEJs are for blasting things. Two large blast AP2 shots, or 3 small and 1 large ap2 shots. Should give MCs pause, as well as most other things. Neat bit is that Pask has 36" range and demolisher has 24", so pask can stay in back without range issues.  Relic Plating is because I had 8pts extra and dumped 3pts here.

 

Widespread AM heavy flamer hull weapons are a personal favorite. Makes opponents really regret failed charges or vehicle assaults that don't disable the vehicle. This, I've found, is a very viable reason, despite really not being shot very often. I will also note that heavy flamers can be very effective in situations where the enemy is too close to the tank to place a template, or for when a sentinel gets to overwatch. They have fun potential against manned buildings, though I've not facing manned buildings often enough to get this one to work.

 

Pod unit includes the IC and is mostly just there for the melta. Infravisor is there because I had 8pts extra, so I dumped 5pts here. Deathwind on the pod is something I keep forgetting to do - 7th changed it so the landing pod can fire at full bs, as opposed to prior editions where it counted as moving too fast and would have to snap (which doesn't fire the large blast).

 

Still haven't figured out what to do with the second tactical squad. Plasma cannon is fluffy and not a terrible option, plus it really does increase enemy target priority. Not sure here.

 

Knights do their knighty thing. They outflank or scout and just wreck havoc until they are eventually destroyed. List has several applications for them, specifically lowering intiative for Pask's blinding plas shot, plas for reliable AA, or just lowering toughness for any number of high strength weapons in the army list....

 

Deathstrike is, more or less, just there for my amusement. I've found that, provided a decent LOS blocking piece of terrain (missile doesn't count for LoS), the thing will typically survive long enough to shoot, which is turn 1-3. It still almost never kills it's points in models, but the opponent will dread it all the same when I whip out that 10" blast template. I'll probably swap it out for something more serious in the annihilation event - maybe not, I do love this thing. This is also one of the more impressive weapons with regards to ITCs alternate take on invisibility, as this thing hits them at BS 1 instead of being unable to fire...

[pretre]

Lols Lion El Johnsons...

[Guest]

Lols Lion El Johnsons...

The SW player finally notices...

 

Been kicking that one around for a while. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Guest]

Decided that 3 allies doesn't work well enough at this point level. Might go back, we'll see.

 

1650pt list for GG league this Wednesday:

 

DA CAD

HQ Company Master (Combi-Melta, Infravisor)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Melta Gun, Combi-Melta)

-Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Plasma Cannon)

Fast Attack Black Knights (4, 1x Grenade Launcher)

Heavy Support Land Raider

Fort Vengeance Weapon Battery (2, Battle Cannons)

 

Allied AM

HQ Tank Commander Squadron

-"Lion El Jonson" Executioner (Command Tank, Pask, Relic Plating, Hull Heavy Flamer)

-"Lion El Jonson" Demolisher (Hull Heavy Flamer)

Troops Veterans (10, Demolitions)

Fast Attack Scout Sentinels (2, 2x Heavy Flamer)

Heavy Deathstrike (Hull Heavy Flamer)

 

Total 1650pts

Disaster of a match up. Didn't help that both players were tired and very prone to debating 40k terrain rules.

 

My opponent brought 3 flyrants, 4 fexen, and a few of the big spore mines. My blast weapons hit once, with long scatters on most shots. I killed 1 and half a fexen with all the many blast weapons, as they consistently rolled 5s and 6s for every save. The 6 wounds dealt were at targets out of cover. RW knights got two wounds on a flyrant, because of jink. (he rolled 4/6 saves with jink cover). And I brought no psykers for the first time in a long while and it really impaired this army. LR died to warp blast.

 

Anyway, yeah, got wiped. Typical test lists have some test units do well and others do poorly, all did poorly this game. 

 

On a side note, deathstrike never fired. He could have, but I opted to pop smoke because opponent lacked targets close enough together to make use of it. Then, due to poor deathstrike positioning, enemy flyrant arrived behind and destroyed it via S6 ap- weapons to the rear armor.

 

Lots of fails.

 

Unit by unit:

 

Sentinels were fine, more or less. They didn't do anything, but at 70pts, all I could have hoped for against this opponent was linebreaker. They would have done it fine if the rest of the army had pulled it's weight.

 

Deathstrike, as above, didn't fire or contribute. He's not a unit I intend to keep in this list anyway, but he's normally more fun to bring just for kicks.

 

Plasma cannon Tactical Squad wasn't too bad. They certainly did their part.

 

Pod+Tactical+company master scattered 11" off target. Yeah, just stuff like that all game. Deathwind managed to wound a carnifex, who saved against the wound. Company master proved worthless. I never field those, but I don't presently have a Combi-melta libby, so that was why.

 

Black knights did fine for that unit and were some of the more effective units in this farce of a battle.

 

Land Raider got 2 or 3 wounds on the deceased carnifex before getting warp blasted. Unit in tow got pinned on the disembark, the failed moral, regrouped, then wiped. Failed morale meant snapfiring lasguns and no charges, so I didn't get to use the demo vets upgrade at all. I was glad I took the LR instead of a LRR or LRC, as the lascannons were useful. That said, I really wished I had taken a PFG and deathwing vehicle for this game.

 

Lion El Jonsons and Vengeance battle cannons both suffered from never rolling "hit" results. A bad day to be a blast weapon.

 

So, for summary and list tweaks. Lion El Jonsons are too many points for this level and as allies. Deathstrike, as planned, needs to be dropped. I need AA. I need a psyker with psychic hood. Getting a biker IC with auspex would really aid the RW bikers. And I need a dedicated melee unit.

[Guest]

Just hit me that if making a mech/pod list, the assault squad without jump packs is a really good option because the free rhino/pod means that the unit itself is 5-man SM unit for 40pts.

 

Got several OOP techmarines with pistols and wrenches. Far more than I can really use for techmarines. Started thinking about doing an IH assault squad with them (or vanguard vets). The models already have a "hand" on one of their shoulder pads, so doesn't really require conversion. Would look pretty cool, I think.

[WestRider]

Unfortunately, vanilla SM are the worst Dex to do that Assault Squad Drop Pod thing with. DA are a little better, because their Sergeants can at least take Combi-Weapons, but BA are really the best at it, because they can take the full spread of Special Weapons in Assault Squads, and their Sergeants have a great range of options.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, vanilla SM are the worst Dex to do that Assault Squad Drop Pod thing with. DA are a little better, because their Sergeants can at least take Combi-Weapons, but BA are really the best at it, because they can take the full spread of Special Weapons in Assault Squads, and their Sergeants have a great range of options.

Not really the angle I'm thinking. I'm just looking at a 35pt tank/pod and a 40pt SM unit of 5. That is a dirt cheap force multiplier for mech/pod armies. Even AM would have a tough time producing another tank+unit for that cost.

 

I do otherwise agree with your point.

 

EDIT: Started Comparing the DA and SM books more closely with regards to Assault squad options. You are correct that DA have sergeant access to more ranged weapons. SM have a combat shield and a grav-pistol which the DA can't take. One notable thing is the DA sergeant can double up on plasma pistols (or CCWs), while the SM sergeant is locked in with the pistol+melee weapon (unless he takes multiple special melee weapons). They are otherwise the same unit, differing only with regards to chapter specific rules.

[Guest]

A few thoughts.

 

1: I've got enough libbies now to field that DA Libby detachment. Not sure how viable it is, but it's interesting to have the option.

 

2: Got a few ridiculously OOP Marines with Shuriken weapons. I'm thinking that if I call them grav guns, it won't create issues, given that marines don't have any shuriken weapons anymore. For the IH detachment.

 

3. Somewhat tempted to field tactical terminators, just because West said they can't work.....

[pretre]

They can work; there's just always a better way to spend those points...

[WestRider]

Yep. It's possible for a good enough player to make anything work, especially in a relatively soft meta, like most of the batreps you post indicate. That doesn't change the fact that some things are much worse than others.

[Guest]

Yep. It's possible for a good enough player to make anything work, especially in a relatively soft meta, like most of the batreps you post indicate. That doesn't change the fact that some things are much worse than others.

Oh, GG league's meta isn't soft. The deal is that I tend to lose games, so the pairing system puts me with similar players. The worse players are often more enjoyable people to play against, so I don't mind.

 

As for why I lose, it would be three or four things. First, I have major issues with list construction, related to overthinking and being frugal with points. Second would be a general tenancy to handicap myself while playing 40k, either to make it more enjoyable to the opponent, or to do things in a more fun way. Third would a lack of enjoyment of winning, I don't really care who wins a game of 40k. Forth would be purposely suppressing my competitive nature, as I'm rather an all or nothing type of person - behaving with true desire to defeat my opponent would likely result in physical violence rather quickly as the best way to defeat the player is to disable the player, the plastic and metal models don't need to do any fighting for quick victory.

[WestRider]

That's kind of part of my point. The GG League as a whole may be a competitive environment, but you're splashing around in the shallows, not trying to swim in the deep end.

 

In that case, you're going to be able to do just fine with Tactical Terminators. That doesn't mean that those of us working from a different set of baseline assumptions (e.g. actually trying to win games against skilled opponents) don't have valid criticisms of their power level in that environment. Your experience doesn't provide you with much, if any perspective to comment on the experience we're having with the same Unit in an entirely different baseline environment.

[Guest]

That's kind of part of my point. The GG League as a whole may be a competitive environment, but you're splashing around in the shallows, not trying to swim in the deep end.

 

In that case, you're going to be able to do just fine with Tactical Terminators. That doesn't mean that those of us working from a different set of baseline assumptions (e.g. actually trying to win games against skilled opponents) don't have valid criticisms of their power level in that environment. Your experience doesn't provide you with much, if any perspective to comment on the experience we're having with the same Unit in an entirely different baseline environment.

Is this about another thread?

[WestRider]

That was in response to this:

 

Oh, GG league's meta isn't soft. The deal is that I tend to lose games, so the pairing system puts me with similar players. The worse players are often more enjoyable people to play against, so I don't mind.

 

As for why I lose, it would be three or four things. First, I have major issues with list construction, related to overthinking and being frugal with points. Second would be a general tenancy to handicap myself while playing 40k, either to make it more enjoyable to the opponent, or to do things in a more fun way. Third would a lack of enjoyment of winning, I don't really care who wins a game of 40k. Forth would be purposely suppressing my competitive nature, as I'm rather an all or nothing type of person - behaving with true desire to defeat my opponent would likely result in physical violence rather quickly as the best way to defeat the player is to disable the player, the plastic and metal models don't need to do any fighting for quick victory.

Even tho the League as a whole may be competitive, the portion of it that you interact with tends not to be, for the most part (which I referred to earlier, with the point about how most of the time when you've posted your opponents' lists, they've been pretty weak), and those four factors you list push your experience far away from relevance to serious competitive play.

[Guest]

Even tho the League as a whole may be competitive, the portion of it that you interact with tends not to be, for the most part (which I referred to earlier, with the point about how most of the time when you've posted your opponents' lists, they've been pretty weak), and those four factors you list push your experience far away from relevance to serious competitive play.

Serious, competitive play. Hmm..

 

I think I disagree. My thoughts are that I can take the experiences gained in any aspect of 40k, and apply to the rest. Just because I tend to experiment and often don't focus on designing winning lists, does not mean that I cannot create boring, ruthless, sadistic lists. 

 

I just don't want to be that boring, ruthless, sadistic guy. I'm unwilling to win like that.

[pretre]

Serious, competitive play. Hmm..

 

I think I disagree. My thoughts are that I can take the experiences gained in any aspect of 40k, and apply to the rest. Just because I tend to experiment and often don't focus on designing winning lists, does not mean that I cannot create boring, ruthless, sadistic lists. 

 

I just don't want to be that boring, ruthless, sadistic guy. I'm unwilling to win like that.

I think you're playing a whole different game than the competitive one. Although you can apply some of those lessons to competitive 40k, there are some lessons that you are never learning that are essential to competing at a higher level.

[Guest]

I think you're playing a whole different game than the competitive one. Although you can apply some of those lessons to competitive 40k, there are some lessons that you are never learning that are essential to competing at a higher level.

I disagree. 

 

I'm going to go back to my topic of the 40k imperial lists I'm working on.

[WestRider]

I used to think the same thing until I actually started moving up into serious competitive play. I'm still not on the same level as people like AP or The French Overlord, but I've moved up enough that I'm at least vastly more aware of how much I wasn't even seeing before.

[pretre]

Ahh-greed!

[Guest]

Captain A has taken joel's position in the GG league. Captain A is pro FW, so I'm hoping that within FW options, I'll be able to work out a solid TACT list. This edition has been really bad for that, so far.

 

For FW options, the obvious is that I get to field my Mortis Dreadnoughts which solve my AA issues in the DA codex. I can also field my LS Tempests.

[Guest]

Professor X pointed out that S&P is confered to the entire unit.

 

Means that a Conversion Beamer on a techmarine who's attached to a centurion unit is able to move and fire. Also combi-plasma ICs can charge after shooting.

 

Also means an attached IC can't overwatch.

 

Can't believe I missed it.

[WestRider]

Makes Combi-Grav non-terrible as well.

[Guest]

Makes Combi-Grav non-terrible as well.

And, come to think of it, the Chapter master orbital strike.

[WestRider]

That Relic Bolter that's decent except for the fact that it's Salvo, too.