Pax's Imperial Army (expanded topic from minotaur/exorcist thread)

[Guest]

125 for the Unit of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. With 60" Range, I figure they can hang back in Cover, camp an Objective, and plink away pretty effectively. And I've got three ablative Wounds before they get to anything I care about. Wave Serpents will wreck them, but against most anything else, they should be alright.

Skitarii have no objective secured options, so troops are as good as any other unit for holding objectives.

 

125pts is a very much a decent cost backfield unit.

 

I often field a devastator squad with 2 lascannons and 2 multi-meltas for 130pts. It's no 60" of range, but the damage output is pretty solid and it threatens the table well enough.

 

The real big danger is that LR Eradicator, it's like designed to munch skitarii. Don't see them much, but these might be enough to change the meta.

[Guest]

Here:

 

1650pt GG league list

 

CAD Ultramarines (685pts)

HQ Calgar (Artificer version, Warlord)

Troops Scout Squad (5, Combi-MG)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Flakk ML)

Heavy Land Raider

 

Stitarii Manitiple (321pts)

Troops Vanguard (8, Mask+Conversion field)

Troops Rangers (5, 2 Arquebuses, Ominspex)

Fort Vengeance Weapon Battery (Quad Icarus)

 

Allied Grey Knights (280pts)

HQ Brotherhood Champion

Troops Strike Squad (Psycannon, MB)

 

Allied Astra Militarum (363pts)

HQ Tank Commander

-Vanquisher Command Tank (Relic Plating, Hull HF)

-Eradicator (Hull HF)

Troops Vets (10, Forward Sentries, Mortar)

 

Total 1649pts.

[WestRider]

Oh, also:

 

 

The other notable one is a 3 shot TL 36" S6 ap3 weapon which "tags" targets hit. The tag both reduces cover by 1 AND allows any charging unit to re-roll charges.

 

Unfortunately, the Phosphor weapons need to actually do a Glance/Pen/Unsaved Wound to mark their target. A hit isn't enough.

[pretre]

That's a lot of detachments...

[Guest]

Unfortunately, the Phosphor weapons need to actually do a Glance/Pen/Unsaved Wound to mark their target. A hit isn't enough.

I know. I was summarizing the effect. I described the effect as "tag" and didn't say it only needed hits.

 

You'd hit and glance/pen/unsaved wound with one unit, then use the omnispex to get -2 cover with your arquebus unit.

 

Several of the units can take phoshor weapons. The troop squad leaders can get pistol versions (S5 ap 4, so decent pistol), the 4 legged walkers have a big version with 3 TL shots, the lance cavalry have an upgrade for an 18" one, and there is a 25pt relic pistol version for troops or that infiltrator elite unit.

[Guest]

That's a lot of detachments...

Yeah, makes the army tough to assess.

 

Still GG allows unlimited detachments and I haven't been, but really want to.

[WestRider]

Read the bit I quoted. You explicitly said "hit".

[Guest]

Read the bit I quoted. You explicitly said "hit".

Fail. Well, I know what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Here:

 

1650pt GG league list

 

CAD Ultramarines (685pts)

HQ Calgar (Artificer version, Warlord)

Troops Scout Squad (5, Combi-MG)

Troops Tactical Squad (5, Flakk ML)

Heavy Land Raider

 

Stitarii Manitiple (321pts)

Troops Vanguard (8, Mask+Conversion field)

Troops Rangers (5, 2 Arquebuses, Ominspex)

Fort Vengeance Weapon Battery (Quad Icarus)

 

Allied Grey Knights (280pts)

HQ Brotherhood Champion

Troops Strike Squad (Psycannon, MB)

 

Allied Astra Militarum (363pts)

HQ Tank Commander

-Vanquisher Command Tank (Relic Plating, Hull HF)

-Eradicator (Hull HF)

Troops Vets (10, Forward Sentries, Mortar)

 

Total 1649pts.

Basically, I've got several toolbox units, which very much fits my style of play. I prefer a lack of duplicates, too,

 

I dropped the arc maul and pistol on the vanguard alpha because calgar provides easily enough AT for the unit.

 

Idea is that calgar joins the brotherhood champion and the vanguard in the land raider. That's my deathstar.  Vanguard lower enemy toughness, while brotherhood champion can hammerhand to increase squad strength. Means calgar can ID tyranid MCs....

 

Tank commander is a vanquisher because I love those, but BS 3 is inadequate. BS 4 should be enough. I can use the orders to split fire between him and the nova cannon. Unit is primary anti-skimmer/bike, with secondary heavy AT. Second AV 14 target.

 

Vengeance Weapon Battery is there because I couldn't afford the Onager with Icarus Array. May tweak things to afford it later, but idea is that I need AA and I've had luck with these in the past. Skitarii formation gives it scout, which should help. It also makes the third AV14 target, which should aid the others in survival, even if only passively.

 

Tactical squad has flakk ML for extra AA support, in the off chance that opponent actually brings air. Ultra marines have that once per game re-rolls to hit for tactical squads, so the flakks are a bit better for the tactical than other units.

 

Rangers, as per West's build, are backfield shooting.

 

Strike squad is deep striking. Scouts outflank. Camo vets camp objective out of TLOS.

 

4 objective secured, 2 dice of psykers, and 3 AV14 targets.

 

List is probably too small, but an interesting one for the 4-detachment attempt. Seems like it could work.

[Guest]

Should totally find a way to put an Assassin in the mix, if only for the 5th detachment...

[Guest]

Thinking about those Onager Dunecrawlers (skitarii 4-legged walkers).

 

Here's a weird one:

 

Heavy Onager Dunecrawler Squadron (3) 350pts

(1 with TL Phosphor Blaster, Pintle Cognis Stubber)

(2 with Neutron Laser, Cognis Stubber and Pintle Cognis Stubber)

 

Idea is that since weapons in 7th completely resolve prior to the next weapon in a unit, phosphor blaster could reduce cover against the neutron lasers (he's also the cheapest, so he can stand in front). Primary goal is AT, though the Cognis weapons allow them to harrass FMCs, AV10 flyers and other light units. Unit has 15 stubber shots, which should be 5 hits when snap firing. Not amazing, but a decent harrassment option.

 

Another fun build would be:

 

Heavy Onager Dunecrawler Squadron (3) 345pts

-(3 with Erradication Beamer and Cognis Manipulator)

 

That Erradication beamer is a super weird weapon, but certainly favors getting really close to nasty enemy units, so those Cognis Manipulators become pretty viable (basically DCCW+IWND). With the Invulnerably applying in melee, unit has potential against Imperial knight-type enemies, even though that knight swings prior to them. Skitarii also have that rule that could give them WS 6 for a game turn, which would certainly help.

 

Dunno, that Onager Dunecrawler is a really weird option.

[Guest]

GW seems to have thought through those Onager walkers pretty well.

 

Eradicator is the default weapon and base model is a meager 90pts. Like a big sentinel, more than anything.

 

The ideal version is that Icarus Array, which is 125pts for 8 skyfire shots (1 plas shot, 2 TL AC shots with interceptor, and 5 S6 ignores cover shots, all 48" range skyfire shots). That said, this version lacks smoke launchers and, when solo, has only a 6++, so it will probably get destroyed quickly, as it is likely high on the priority list. Onager's can also get locked in melee and have no stock melee weapons and have just 1 base attack (so TAU firewarriors without emp grenades can confidently assault these things, knowing that one Onager is unlikely to defeat a unit of 6 firewarriors all game...).

 

Onager walkers have smoke launcher access, but ones with the icarus array can't take them...So either hide them or get a buddy. That said, the buddy removes the point of the smokes, as adding a buddy makes them both have a 5++.

 

Those cognis Manipulators, the DCCW+IWND is +25pts per model, and I'm pretty sure, doesn't increase the number of attacks. Unit has stock  WS3 and stock Initiative 3. Techinally, DCCW is ap1, so there is that, but it barely matters if they get locked first.

 

Then you've got a neutron laser with co-axial cognis stubber (no FW co-axial rules, just where it's mounted). Neutron laser versions are 115pts base. The laser itself, unlike the FW version, is a blast weapon. Otherwise it is simlar, being S10, ap1 small blast concussive, but doesn't have that FW rule that requires snaps. It is a 48" weapon.

 

Erradicator, as mentioned, is the stock weapon at base model's 90pts. Sort of a reverse conversion beamer, with a larger blast and worse profile the longer the range. Range is determined prior to scatter, unlike the conversion beamer. Very notable, at 9" range it loses the blast profile, potentially allowing it to snap at close chargers to really close flyers.

 

Last is that TL Phosphor blaster. Only TL weapon (aside from the skyfire AC part of the icarus). 3 shots s6 ap3. 36" range. 105pts base. Limited, but one of the more reliable builds against a variety of targets. 3 TL shots should be enough to usually hit flyers, even if limited odds of doing damage.

 

If I had to suggest the likely common builds.

 

TL Phosphor is the one that is taken when you want a buddy for the Icarus, but don't want to buy a second/third one of the same (+20pts for an icarus, though few targets will need that many).

 

Neutron is likely a common solo build. Sit at long range and pop vehicles. Smokes and Pintle Stubber upgrades are good options.

 

Erradicator is prime for that cognis manipulator. Units of 1-3.

 

Icarus is likely 1-2, likely with a TL phosphor to stand in front and bolster the unit invulnerable. Running them solo will likely be disappointing, as I think they will attract major attention when useful, and be ignored when not useful.

[AbusePuppy]

I was under the impression that the Icarus Array was a single weapon with three sets of profiles, and thus you could only fire one each turn. I could be wrong, though, I haven't gotten to read the codex in detail.

 

DCCWs are AP2, not AP1. And it won't get the extra attack from taking the Manipulator, as it doesn't have a second weapon fr the +1.

 

I think the Neutron is far and away the best setup for it; it's a strong, long-range weapon that can shatter tanks effectively and even ID tough targets like Thunderwolves. The Icarus Array is an interesting AA option, but with no ability to get any other gun to go with it, you're paying 100+pts for a unit that snapfires at most things (and isn't even exceptionally effective against airborne targets.) The Phosphor seems a bit redundant, but it might be worth considering. Eradicator + Manipulator is... interesting as a squad of three, though I'm not sure how actually good it would be.

[Guest]

I was under the impression that the Icarus Array was a single weapon with three sets of profiles, and thus you could only fire one each turn. I could be wrong, though, I haven't gotten to read the codex in detail.

 

DCCWs are AP2, not AP1. And it won't get the extra attack from taking the Manipulator, as it doesn't have a second weapon fr the +1.

 

I think the Neutron is far and away the best setup for it; it's a strong, long-range weapon that can shatter tanks effectively and even ID tough targets like Thunderwolves. The Icarus Array is an interesting AA option, but with no ability to get any other gun to go with it, you're paying 100+pts for a unit that snapfires at most things (and isn't even exceptionally effective against airborne targets.) The Phosphor seems a bit redundant, but it might be worth considering. Eradicator + Manipulator is... interesting as a squad of three, though I'm not sure how actually good it would be.

Icarus array is very specific that it has all the weapons and can fire any AND all profiles. You can specifically interceptor with the AC, then fire the others the shooting phase. It is the most expensive weapon option.

 

Icarus can upgrade for a pintle stubber and can take the Cognis Manipulator, though I think both are bad options.

 

That said, pretty sure they count as one weapon for weapon destroyed results, like the hurricane bolters.

 

DCCWs are ap2, the Cognis Manipulator is AP1, but is otherwise basically a DCCW. So I summarize it as an ap1 DCCW. It also grants IWND, so I sometimes note it as DCCW+IWND for simplicity. Most of the time, AP2 and AP1 are the same thing.

 

Neutron suffers for being a blast weapon, so it can't target invisible thunderwolves. Being a blast also means it doesn't benefit as much from the skitarii BS boosting. It is otherwise awesome. Huge fan of the cognis stubbers, too.

 

I also didn't list that the phosphor has that rule that unsaved/pened/glanced enemies are both -1 cover and any model to charge them may re-roll charge distance. That, decent range and TL with 3 shots makes it a solid support weapon, but unlikely a version taken solo.

[Guest]

Anyway, enough dunecrawlers. Looking at those odd 2-legged walkers now.

 

Extremely wierd units. 2 HP AV11 on all sides sentinel varients. Field-able as 1-6 man vehicle squadrons.

 

Got two versions, the FA version (Sydonian Dragoons) and a heavy version (Ironstrider Ballistarii). Both are dirt cheap in points. Both have crusader and "dunestrider." Dunestrider makes them very fast, by adding 3" to all movement (move, run, AND charge). So looking at an easy 9" inches with shooting, 13-18" via move+Run and 14-24" move+charges. Very fast walkers.

 

FA version is kitted for melee, though can be upgraded to not be. A special rule for a constant 5+ cover.

 

Stock FA version has this "taser lance" which is +3 strength and double initiative on the charge, so it can be S8 and initiative 6 when charging. Weapon is ap- and only +2 strength without the charge, but that charge is fearsome for enemy walkers, especially super heavy walkers. Model has 3 base swings and any taser weapon hit rolls of 6 become 2 hits, so some nasty hit potential even against invisible melee enemies.

 

Any in the unit can upgrade for an 18" phosphor weapon with 1 shot (s5 ap4). They can also swap their taser lance for a "radium jezzrail" which aside from being a skaven weapon , is a 2 shot 30" variant of the radium carbine and also has the sniper rule (so on 6s to wound, is not only ap2, but causes 2x ap2 wounds).

 

Heavy version is more like a sentinel. It's got a TL cognis AC and precision shots by default, and option for a Cognis TL Lascannon (for the price that you'd pay for an armored sentinel with lascannon).

 

Neither have vehicle upgrade access.

[Guest]

Love how many AT options their are in this codex. All rather fragile options, but still.

 

So, fun little math hammer.

 

6-man FA version (270pts) of 2-legged walkers charges an imperial knight. Knights can't overwatch. We use the Skitarii special rule to give them -2 BS and +3 WS, making the unit WS7 and BS2.

 

With the taser lances, we strike first at initative 6. We have 24 swings, hitting on 3s. 16 hits, with four being natural 6s, making the total hits actually 20 (taser hits of 6 become 2 hits). Against the Knight FA13, we glance on 5s and pen on 6s. That's 3.33 glances and 3.33 pens (6.66 HP lose prior to rolling on the pen chart). The knight only has 6 HP, so it dies without getting swing.

 

It dies and explodes, very likely killing most of the unit (The 5+ cover really matters here).

 

In theory, we could destroy a stompa with two of such units.

[Guest]

Love how many AT options their are in this codex. All rather fragile options, but still.

 

So, fun little math hammer.

 

6-man FA version (270pts) of 2-legged walkers charges an imperial knight. Knights can't overwatch. We use the Skitarii special rule to give them -2 BS and +3 WS, making the unit WS7 and BS2.

 

With the taser lances, we strike first at initative 6. We have 24 swings, hitting on 3s. 16 hits, with four being natural 6s, making the total hits actually 20 (taser hits of 6 become 2 hits). Against the Knight FA13, we glance on 5s and pen on 6s. That's 3.33 glances and 3.33 pens (6.66 HP lose prior to rolling on the pen chart). The knight only has 6 HP, so it dies without getting swing.

 

It dies and explodes, very likely killing most of the unit (The 5+ cover really matters here).

 

In theory, we could destroy a stompa with two of such units.

Note with the math, they really aren't a very point efficient way to destroy an imperial knight, plus they are likely too fragile to make assault at full strength and have no solution to bubbled knights or charges through cover.

 

That said, the above is impressive in the respect that a frontal assault is probably the worst possible way to deal with an imperial knight and this is one of the few units which could realistically do it (and on early game turns).

[WestRider]

Here's a weird one:

 

Heavy Onager Dunecrawler Squadron (3) 350pts

(1 with TL Phosphor Blaster, Pintle Cognis Stubber)

(2 with Neutron Laser, Cognis Stubber and Pintle Cognis Stubber)

 

Idea is that since weapons in 7th completely resolve prior to the next weapon in a unit, phosphor blaster could reduce cover against the neutron lasers (he's also the cheapest, so he can stand in front). Primary goal is AT, though the Cognis weapons allow them to harrass FMCs, AV10 flyers and other light units. Unit has 15 stubber shots, which should be 5 hits when snap firing. Not amazing, but a decent harrassment option.

I was thinking about variations on this, but the fact that the Phosphor Blaster has to actually do damage to reduce Cover Saves, not just score Hits, really makes it unimpressive, especially against the kind of things you really want to be shooting Neutron Lasers at.

 

On the Lancers vs. Knight, you don't have to go all the way to the Alpha Level Imperative. Any of the +WS Imperatives will take them to the point where they're hitting the Knight on 3s, and none of them will drop the Knight to hitting on 5s unless you've also got Sicarian Infiltrators nearby.

[Guest]

I was thinking about variations on this, but the fact that the Phosphor Blaster has to actually do damage to reduce Cover Saves, not just score Hits, really makes it unimpressive, especially against the kind of things you really want to be shooting Neutron Lasers at.

 

On the Lancers vs. Knight, you don't have to go all the way to the Alpha Level Imperative. Any of the +WS Imperatives will take them to the point where they're hitting the Knight on 3s, and none of them will drop the Knight to hitting on 5s unless you've also got Sicarian Infiltrators nearby.

Agree on both points.

[Guest]

Okay, got a box of Vanguard/rangers. Also acquired an OOP metal sentinel from the GG bits bin - that model would make a great Ironstrider/dragoon. Might be getting a second on ebay, we'll see. (edit, ordered a second)

 

At present, I'm thinking a 5-man vanguard unit with arc rifles, and a bigger vanguard unit for assault and without special weapons (by bigger, I mean, I'll be adding some tech servitors to the mix).

 

As for the Ironstrider/dragoon, I'm not decided. None of the weapons loadouts seem too hard to convert, but several seem iffy in general. Probably going to go with a Jezzrail Dragoon or an autocannon Ironstrider. Model is basically a land speeder variant, for most functional purposes.

[Guest]

Wow.....so now that my list is ally heavy, I've been nostalgic about those DA rules. Might go back. Fail, right?

 

Though this time, might just paint them as DA....

[Guest]

Don't actually have the models, but this one is probably viable:

 

GK CAD

 

HQ Libby (Bone Shard, Hammer)

Elites Dreadnought (MM, DCCW)

Elites Dreadnought (MM, DCCW)

Elites Dreadnought (MM, DCCW)

Troops Strike (5, Incinerator)

Troops Strike (5, Incinerator)

Heavy Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon, Hammer, Personal Teleporter)

Heavy Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon, Hammer, Personal Teleporter)

Heavy Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon, Hammer, Personal Teleporter)

 

Allied DA

HQ Libby (Level 2, Bike, PFG)

-RW Command Squad (5, Apothecary, Grenade Launcher)

Troops Tactical (5)

Troops Tactical (5)

 

List concept is a bit weird. Basically, GK dreads have Sancturary stock, so the PFG makes them 3++. So Libby joins the bike unit which advances with the dreadnoughts (Dreads running if not in assault range). They need to keep close coherency to keep up the PFG like this.

 

DA libby rolls Telekinesis for that force dome power, as it would allow them to really spread out, even if only as a 4++.

 

Dread Knights and Strikes can either DS and land by the bikes in-built teleport homers, or can follow.

 

Tactical squads are there due to requirements and don't serve a purpose. EDIT: I forgot about allies only needing the one troops for list creation.

 

GK libby is also for list requirements, though he can also serve in a DS role or join the bike squad, depending on which psychic powers he rolls.

 

Nifty combo is to use the RW grenade launcher to lower enemy initiative, which would allow the dreads (knights and noughts) to assault Imperial Knights at higher initiative.

[Guest]

Think I'm going to try this one tonight:

 

1650

 

DA CAD

HQ Libby (Bike, level 2, PFG)

HQ Libby (Bike, level 2, PFG)

Non-slot HQ Techmarine (Combi-melta, Combat Shield)

Troops Scouts (5)

Troops Tactical (8, Melta Gun, Combi-Melta)

-dedicated Drop pod

Fast Attack Black Knights (8, 1x grenade launcher)

 

GK Nemisis Strike Force

 

HQ Brotherhood Champion

Elites Dreadnought

Elites Dreadnought

Troops Strike Squad (5, Incinerator)

Heavy Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon)

 

Total 1650pts.

 

Much of the point of this list is just to test out the PFG+Sancturary Dreadnought.

 

Techmarine joins brotherhood champion and Tactical Squad in the pod.

 

I've also never tested black Knights in a squad this large before. It's against my nature to field really large deathstars, something about all your eggs in one basket.... Both libbies will join this unit.

[Guest]

Think I'm going to try this one tonight:

 

1650

 

DA CAD

HQ Libby (Bike, level 2, PFG)

HQ Libby (Bike, level 2, PFG)

Non-slot HQ Techmarine (Combi-melta, Combat Shield)

Troops Scouts (5)

Troops Tactical (8, Melta Gun, Combi-Melta)

-dedicated Drop pod

Fast Attack Black Knights (8, 1x grenade launcher)

 

GK Nemisis Strike Force

 

HQ Brotherhood Champion

Elites Dreadnought

Elites Dreadnought

Troops Strike Squad (5, Incinerator)

Heavy Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon)

 

Total 1650pts.

Got the game in. Very strange army to play.

 

Opponent was Tyranids with genestealers, a rupture cannon tyrannofex, deathleaper, a solo ground-tyrant, a carnifex, a trygon, a small unit of gaunts, and a unit of tyranid warriors. A very uncommon tyranid army in 7th.

 

Mission was maelstrom spoils of war.

 

So, unit by unit:

 

Scouts: Held an objective all game. Stayed backfield and did nothing else. Points well spent.

 

Tactical squad+techmarine+brotherhood champion+pod. Landed in opponent's back field. 3 melta hit 1/3, failed to wound enemy tyrannofex. Very lacking drop turn. That said, unit stayed alive and did quite well holding the opponent's backfield.

 

Strike Squad: Lost 2 members to deep strike scattering into difficult terrain (dangerous to DS). Failed the subsequent morale check, fell back, regrouped, joined another assualt with genestealers and died after inflicting very little actual damage.

 

Dreadnoughts: PFG invulnerable was, more or less, a success. Dreads themselves were lacking in melee and with shooting, but did manage to tie up an unlucky hive tyrant for several turns. Probably not worth the points this game, but the PFG approach did work.

 

Dreadknight: Awesome until it got involved with a hive tyrant. Did not really use the jump rules, not because I forgot, but because they were not needed. Turn 1 DS was awesome.

 

Librarians: Good and bad. Advancing with a dread each while attached to the knight blob was effective until the knights attempted to charge the genestealers. Not only did we not roll very well in that assault, but the PFG gave the genestealers invulnerable saves which proved this assault to be a huge blunder. I rolled telekinesis for one psyker and pyromancy for the other, managing to get both nova powers - these were quite effective. One psyker did perils.

 

RW Knights: The blunder, as described above, was charging with the PFGs into a combat with an enemy with a worse save. Unit was otherwise very effective, responsible for a dead trygon, tyrannofex, and several other enemies. Not efficient, but certainly worth the points.

 

DA in general: Really liked playing those DA rules again. I will be switching back...

[WestRider]

Yeah, if Assaults are going to be a thing, it's really important to consider the impact of the PFG. I usually use it primarily for stuff that's going to be hanging back. I also just recently got a Librarian with a Force Staff, and realized that he makes a way more logical carrier for it than the Force Axe Librarian I'd been using before.

[Guest]

Yeah, if Assaults are going to be a thing, it's really important to consider the impact of the PFG. I usually use it primarily for stuff that's going to be hanging back. I also just recently got a Librarian with a Force Staff, and realized that he makes a way more logical carrier for it than the Force Axe Librarian I'd been using before.

Yeah, force staffs and power mauls (and Crozius Arcanums). All very awesome weapons, especially if you can't deny their save anyway (because it's invulnerable). Best bit with GK allies is easy hammerhand access, which makes them quite impressive against just about everything.