What type of D are you packing?

[intrizic]

So the delivery platform for the D seems to matter quite a bit.  It seems that the 40k community at large has accepted CC D, but still has issues with template and ranged D.

 

So is a Wraith Kahnigit sans Heavy Distortion Cannons and CC D acceptable if the sole use of D?

 

The heavy weapons platform only has a range of 24" is that acceptable D?  short range, fragile, immoble

 

Wraith Guard get tricky because they can get into transports, mobile template D seems to be too much OP ness

 

 

Thoughts

[fluger]

My opinion is biased based on the fact that I run horde-style lists.  I'm not truly concerned with 7th edition ranged D.  I have a hard time quantifying it.  I think ranged D on very resilient platforms with long range were the biggest issues.  

[pretre]

I think most non-template or blast D is 'okay'.

[Guest]

My opinion is biased based on the fact that I run horde-style lists.  I'm not truly concerned with 7th edition ranged D.  I have a hard time quantifying it.  I think ranged D on very resilient platforms with long range were the biggest issues.  

Sort of agree, I find the platform to have a larger impact than the weapon itself. That said, I don't the range matters as much as the specific platform.

 

The Shadowsword, in example, is perfectly balanced for normal 40k, despite a long range D large blast.

 

The Macro Aquilla Strongpoint, in another example, is vastly underpowered in normal games of 40k, despite the D weapon.

 

And the Revenant, in the third example, is vastly overpowered in normal games of 40k.

 

In these three cases, it is the platform which is affecting this evaluation, not the D weapon.

[Aventine]

I don't really think any of the new Eldar D is particularly troublesome; a bump from 10/1 to D is pretty negligible against most things (monstrous/gargantuans and super heavies being the exceptions) and the scythes have the -1 so won't remove models with no recourse. I'm pretty deep in the acceptance phase right now.

[JMGraham]

For me, it comes down to models. My Eldar army is centered around two units of Wraitguard with D-Scythes. In Wave Serpents. I still really like them, but I might drop down to one, particularly if Wraithguard can no longer become core with a Spirit Seer. Still, I'll feel pretty unapologetic so long as I don't have any D that can reach out and touch folks from a distance. Which I think would also be fine, provided there's not TOO much of it.

 

If there are any losers this codex, I think it's armies that rely on MCs to get the job done. Sorry, Tyranids, but ...

[James Beadle]

D weapons are the new fact of life for the game. You can dislike it all you want, but that doesn't change the reality. I was taken aback by it as well, however the game isn't going to implode and folks will adapt. I think it might cause some fits for the tournament scene, but again, it will be adapted to.

[Skkipper]

Yeah not liking ranged d is similar to not liking flyers when they came out

[intrizic]

I've started looking at the 'D' like in the same genra as Lance, melta, or shred.  It's just s a new weapon type.  I've played other games that use the multiple wound from one attack mechanic that upon investigation, other than rolling the 6, D isn't that bad.  That said, I'll probably need a tissue or two once I get hit with JMGrahams d-scythes ;D

[WestRider]

The thing about "It's not so bad, except for the 6" is that the 6 is exactly the problem. My distaste for D Weapons is part of a larger pattern of disliking low probability, high impact effects, because they're essentially impossible to balance properly at a given scale. They can work OK in Apocalypse because there are enough of them, and enough big things for them to shoot, that the law of averages starts to have some effect, but in regular 40K, where each D shot is going to get to fire 5-7 times, tops, even a slight shift from the expected number of 6s rolled can have a huge impact on the Game. Even more so when the other player has a DeathStar or Super-Heavy of some sort. I've read way too many batreps that were basically "Well, he rolled a 6 on Turn 1, and took out a third of my Army with one shot, and that was more or less game over."

[fluger]

I'm convinced that the tournament meta is going to shift away from deathstars for this exact reason.  All hail the MSU resurgence.  

[pretre]

I remember 5th edition. :)

[intrizic]

I would say the meta of 7th would destroy even the most tuned GK list in 5th

[intrizic]

The thing about "It's not so bad, except for the 6" is that the 6 is exactly the problem. My distaste for D Weapons is part of a larger pattern of disliking low probability, high impact effects, because they're essentially impossible to balance properly at a given scale. They can work OK in Apocalypse because there are enough of them, and enough big things for them to shoot, that the law of averages starts to have some effect, but in regular 40K, where each D shot is going to get to fire 5-7 times, tops, even a slight shift from the expected number of 6s rolled can have a huge impact on the Game. Even more so when the other player has a DeathStar or Super-Heavy of some sort. I've read way too many batreps that were basically "Well, he rolled a 6 on Turn 1, and took out a third of my Army with one shot, and that was more or less game over."

You are correct WestRider, but this shouldn't be a [big bad swear word]ing community issue, which is my core frustration with GW.  But this is the 40k we play...

[fluger]

I would say the meta of 7th would destroy even the most tuned GK list in 5th

 

I think it's a matter of degrees, honestly.  GK in 5th were really freaking good compared to the field.  

[intrizic]

I think it's a matter of degrees, honestly.  GK in 5th were really freaking good compared to the field.  

you are correct.  In that field they were udderly, heh, dominant.  Comparing Apples to fruit leather though, I think 5th ed GK at the peak of their rules would struggle in the 7th ed Meta :D

 

 

mmmm fruit leather

 

*EDIT: doh edited blarg blarg blarg

[fluger]

Fruit leather sounds disgusting, but is, in fact, delicious.  

[Gorgosaurusrex]

I remember 5th edition. :)

 

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

 

I'm convinced that the tournament meta is going to shift away from deathstars for this exact reason.  All hail the MSU resurgence.  

 

I've honestly missed MSU style play. 5th has been my favorite edition of 40k so far, and anything that brings it back is okay in my book!

[fluger]

I *really* don't miss vehicle parking lots.  

[generalripphook]

I've been really loving 7th edition with my guard/astra millitarium, I have been completely fine with D weapons in melee.

 

Shooting weapons...no.

 

With melee at least you have to get there first, then you wreak face that's fine.

 

With a shooting weapons at strength D it just makes it an arms race. Who has the better platforms for D weapons, it's back to the game of alpha strike.

[Xavier319]

I agree Chex. I think a move away from massive units and deathstars is good. I like it when armies have a variety of units. Just makes the game more dynamic, less "well, i need to deal with that one thing". Though yes, I dont miss parking lots either.

 

As for ranged D. It's in the game, so we should tr and see what good it will do. It will lower the numbers of adamantine lances, which is good in my book. I like super-heavies but I think the plethora of Imperial Knights hurts the game as a whole. As well, the necron book (the most un-fun book to play against, IMO) was designed with the fact that the enemy will be fielding D weapons on regular units. I say Necrons are un-fun to play against mostly because without D weapons it's frustratingly difficult to kill even the most basic infantry out of that list. So WE have to accept that this is where the game is going, for better or worse. Might as well figure out what the good points are.

[Guest]

I've been really loving 7th edition with my guard/astra millitarium, I have been completely fine with D weapons in melee.

 

Shooting weapons...no.

 

With melee at least you have to get there first, then you wreak face that's fine.

 

With a shooting weapons at strength D it just makes it an arms race. Who has the better platforms for D weapons, it's back to the game of alpha strike.

AM have lots of options against ranged D.

 

Camo netting and any source of cover should at least drop the odds to destroy your vehicle with a D hit by almost half.

 

Psychic powers, such as invisibility or force dome present alternate solutions to ranged D weapons. AM certainly have cheap psykers.

 

Also, in regards to games of alpha strikes, AM aren't really in a position to complain about ranged alpha strikes....

[Guest]

I agree Chex. I think a move away from massive units and deathstars is good. I like it when armies have a variety of units. Just makes the game more dynamic, less "well, i need to deal with that one thing". Though yes, I dont miss parking lots either.

 

As for ranged D. It's in the game, so we should tr and see what good it will do. It will lower the numbers of adamantine lances, which is good in my book. I like super-heavies but I think the plethora of Imperial Knights hurts the game as a whole. As well, the necron book (the most un-fun book to play against, IMO) was designed with the fact that the enemy will be fielding D weapons on regular units. I say Necrons are un-fun to play against mostly because without D weapons it's frustratingly difficult to kill even the most basic infantry out of that list. So WE have to accept that this is where the game is going, for better or worse. Might as well figure out what the good points are.

Doesn't really solve deathstars. Invisibility still presents as one of the stronger solutions to ranged D (and, really, any ranged attack). 2+ cover or 2++ invulnerable is very much a solid defense for D weapons. 6s will still cut through it, but that's it.

 

I do agree, I think the "plethora" of imperial knights was hurting the game.

 

I am thinking that GW is nearing the point where arguments against FW are impossible to form. Not there yet, but getting closer.

[wildcat]

i don't have problems with the eldar D weapons, i just have a problem with the jet bikes.

[Guest]

i don't have problems with the eldar D weapons, i just have a problem with the jet bikes.

Running AM? Try the Bane Wolf or the Deathstrike. Either will really ruin an eldar player's enjoyment of their biker army. Just as viable against WS bikers too.