Fixxer

the negative is applied to the WS before the fear test is even taken is how I would play it. Say I have a WS4 fighter that was hit with the breath weapon, the next combat phase the fighter would be WS3. Take your fear check... So I dont think they would stack and create the WS0 scenario. Do you really even need it?

I think if you are hell bent on running a horde of spider riders you should cap that at 1. Not that its over-powered or even under-powered its just boring and doesnt really play to goblin strengths. I can see a single horde of either goblin cav being good but only when there are at least 3 big bosses and a war boss in there. I would suggest something like a horde of 40, two units of 15, and two units of 5. This will give you redirectors and decent flanking units. Use those extra points for more characters. As for special characters in fantasy... Just not really a fan, and Im glad people dont generally play with them. :)

Im not really worried about you optimizing, I know you dont play like that . Im just voicing my opinion that small units of elite infantry aren't "useless". I understand the threat of MI and MC and Im saying your original list has everything it needs to deal with that. You have 10 CoKs, a manticore, and a hydra. Lets throw in that level 4 using dark magic, which can wreck some big tough stuff on the field. I just think any changes you made would completely overhaul the ability of the list. I would say less characters, but I always consider a hero on a flying monster a rare choice, so its hard to say. Your list is really cool and capable, I just really like it. What would you cut to get the BG up to 24? Do you even own the models? I want to discourage you from putting those models on your shelf thinking that the current meta makes them ineffective at the size you are running them, that is hogwash. Its all about match ups, which we all know dont always work out, but small stubborn units are awesome and Im just not reading elven playstyle when someone is telling you to make that unit bigger for "the grind". Elves dont grind... especially really expensive ones with no ward save. I also understand that MN answered your question, I disagree with his analysis. I hope there is nothing wrong with that, in fact Ive met MexicanNinja and had a great conversation about Warhammer, Im not trying to be rude or anything. @ MN, I really like your enthusiasm for the game, we are just on a different page when it comes to elven tactics, which wouldnt surprise me, I play HE and you play DE.

I totally agree Mike, its always fun. Lets play a game soon, Ill PM you about it.

Not saying that I dont play competitively when I play, I just like to include my own personality in my army choices and try not to pretend that its cool to play lists that are optimized for power. I dont feel like its fun for any of my opponents, just like I dont think its fun when people purposely build an army that isnt competitive or is lacking. Its all about balance and having tactical flexibility so that all of your games arent RPS or decided during deployment or a 6 diced spell that annihilates 1200 points off the table because its all stacked in a Deathstar. This style of game annoys me to no end and I see it A LOT. Just gotta voice those old school methods every once in a while.

O&G have been included in more starter sets than any other race. I think the are a perfect army to start with. The essence of the game is embodied in the orcs and goblins, have fun, roll dice, smash face... Plus they are as open ended as armies get. You can really play any style/theme you want to. YOu can shoot em up, do monsters, horde up with gobbos, go all orc for a great medium infantry army, go savages and run forward, NGs for a whacky character heavy build and squigg hoppin, or have it ALL going on at the same time!! Potpourri for the win!! IDK... I love the options.

Cannot stand the new gyrocopters/bombers..... Yikes. The old ones had a real nice look and I would've liked to see a zeppelin style bomber. Bummer. Who's flying underground anyways? Skaven zeros next.?! Kamikaze!! Please no.....

Animosity is only a real issue when you roll two 1s in a row, it happens, but not that often. Built into the O&G book are also Black Orc characters that can quell animosity in your important magic wielding mobs. This army is incredibly under rated... O&G have everything except skirmishes and only a single flying monster BUT they do have crazy WMs, big blocks, trolls, fanatics, manglers which can really control the board in whacky / effective ways. The magic movement spell is obnoxiously powerful on biguns and black orcs, foot of gork can win games with a stream of good rolling. Can't stand peeps knocking Da Boyz!!!!!! As for your army... You have to play what you just love. You'll be spending a lot of time with it painting, playing, and showing it off. Pick the army that you like the look of and character, tactics and strategy will come after all that.

Sometimes you take a charge with a small unit of fragile stubborn troops to set up countercharges with heavy cav/ hydra/ manticore in any order or combination. New comers with a serious desire to win try to dominate the game with their play style, which many of us old school ORDOS don't like. GTs and many store tourneys are filled with that mentality....That's why the OFCC exists. I don't like playing different people playing the same exact armies, it's more common now than it ever was. NtK is not a new player, but has been away for a while, I think your list well represents a capable/ fun army in the "spirit". I think it's negligible to swap anything in this army... Play it how it is first and against different armies to find where it lacks. Back in an old school Warhammer of control and balance this army fits, it has all the elements it needs to be successful, you just have to play it right. If you want to "Maximize"... Go with MNs advice.

Basically the way the math works you will always be matching your opponents attacks the wider you get. So 5 wide spears against 7 wide horde, same amount of attacks, 6 wide to 8 wide horde, same attacks, and so on. With ASF rerolls and high WS the advantage is with the elves staying smaller. Thats 20mm on 20mm the odds favor the elves more when they are fighting models on 25mm bases. Add in your augment spell or a hex and thats a total win for elves, you dont need to do a ton of damage when you will have ranks and break steadfast by winning combat. Ive seen it many times, and Ive also seen people run hordes to their disadvantage being Myopic about attacks that they end up flubbing anyway; then they are a rank short because they are too wide and they break. Models are wasted when they arent in combat or making ranks. Elves fight in 3 ranks, no reason to eliminate ranks for a probability of doing damage only for my opponent to be steadfast. . First you preserve your free combat rez with ranks, you have the edge on attacks going out with being able to reroll hits against pretty much everything in the game, so combat should be in the favor of the elves most of the time. I tend to disagree with the meta often. I have a toolbox approach to writing armies. I pretty much consider starting a game without one of my units. I need to be able to be consistent if a single unit were to just evaporate off the table. I feel like elves dont do well when 600 points are dumped into a single block of troops that dont even have a ward save. The only HE unit I would spend any considerable points on or run it horde formation is PG for obvious reasons. They are the only elves with staying power and the only elves that would benefit from another rank of attacks, and again thats ONLY because of a 4+ ward save that could even be a 3+ or 2+.... I love all the different play styles in Warhammer and I agree to disagree with the general consensus. :)

I just tend to disagree with the meta due to its predictability. M5 models with a small frontage are more mobile and allow you more tactical flexibility on the table. High LD, WS and Initiative should allow for a very fast and deceptive play style, which is better suited for an MMU play style. I like my HE units on the small side, I just feel like its plays better to their advantages for too many reasons to list. I see a tendency for people to play elves like their playing WOC and I simply dont see it that way and refuse to play like that. Horde formation is for all those armies we would call hordes; Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Ogres, Beastmen, Undead core... cheap, low WS, infantry that are supposed to be engaged in prolonged combats. I try to be in and out of combats in a single turn when I play HE, it doesnt always work out that way, but the ultimate goal is to break them on the charge or have them charging me out of desperation. Elves use the space on the table and a more intimate understanding of the rules to gain a consistent advantage by being active in every phase with deliberate and calculated decisions. With such flexibility and frailty I prefer a "Jack of All" approach and use every phase while not really dominating any one. It is certainly about match ups. When I go out to receive a charge with my spear elves its almost always cavalry and MC which helps them to stick around a little longer. Id say give it a shot at least, you might be surprised by how they perform in that formation.

Martial prowess should eliminate any desire to run a horde. I dont think elves benefit from horde formation very often, especially with spearmen. I feel like they are there to be steadfast, minimizing attacks on yourself. A block of 30 to 40, 5 wide, is really the only way to run them. You need to find a match up where being steadfast for a round or two will set up a counter charge. They are pure defense, dont expect them to kill anything.

Please dont resort to this type of tactic. It wont do you any good if your hexwraiths arent helping anyway. VC and TK are some of the hardest armies to learn how to play in the game, plain and simple. First off, it doesnt mean you have to resort to cheeky tactics to cheese yourself into position or get wins, please, again, dont do the conga line thing. I feel like you are approaching the army all wrong. You are a great general and I know you are very knowledgeable about the game, but VC are very different. Winning a game doesnt mean you have to destroy everything in their army, you only need more points than they can get from you. VC has the best CHAFF and SUPPORT auras in the game. You really have to use patience, chaff, and the right synergy of hexes, buffs, and support auras to eliminate single units at a time. This doesnt mean piling on everything you have into one unit, its getting favorable combats while other threats are chaffed up by multiple small units that dont panic or flee. DEVO hasnt played in a while, but he has a couple VC armies that have always been very difficult to beat. He is a patient player that builds his armies with incredible balance. I remember a decent magic phase, a strong combat unit, plenty of support auras, bound spells, and incredible amounts of chaff. His armies were always sound while other VC players seem to be too aggressive, predictable, or leave out important unit choices to support what they have. I feel for you not wanting to do the typical thing... Id try getting some bat swarms and a corpse cart in there and Id play as reserved as my opponent would let me. :)

Funny.... Ive seen many experienced DE players use WE lately... and to great effect. No, it wasnt because they are ignorant or because their opponent doesnt know how to play .... Its because when you write up an army (especially elves) its about a combinations of troops. WE are aggressive and offensive, but dont really need to be if the rest of the army isnt. With the amount of shooting and aggressive magic in the DE army, WE dont have to run at or into anything. They can just sit in the center of a battle line and opponents have no choice but to move in or get shot and/or magicked! Warhammer is a crazy game. Opinions can sometimes come off as definitive statements. Just saying ,that's why people argue. .

Im loving the idea of the sister of slaughter kit bashed with dark eldar wyches. I mean your still looking at $90 for 20 chicks (10 of each), but after looking at the models online I bet they would look totally awesome. Lion of Flanders bashed up some scouts with dark eldar Wyches and im guessing corsairs that look awesome, cant wait to see sisters of slaughter tho. Has anyone tried this yet?

You can bring up to 6 spear chukkas and its not a bad idea either. Orcs and Goblins are one of the better shooting armies out there. Their WM are cheap and are special and rare choices, meaning you can field a lot of them; concentrate fire for the win. So adding rock lobbas and doom divers might not be a bad idea. Coupled with the shooting I think a couple mangler squigs can create good tactical synergies. Finally, add fanatics to the NG block and some more characters, you could have a nice Orc and Goblin army.

Its only because they have BOTH rules that they CANCEL each other out My point is that ASL is also tied to a +2 S bonus which needs to be considered. All THREE of those rules are in effect on a white lion that is why they get to strike at Initiative with a +2S bonus. Your saying they dont have any of those rules anymore due to the word cancel. I think you are wrong. I think cancel was referring to the effect, not the rule. Im just speaking freely. It really doesnt matter either way. I want to understand this because with the elven releases its come up a lot. This isnt a democracy and points of contention help us to understand everything a little better. :)

First off, I dont think a model can have the same special rule twice, therefor spells like bironas time warp would be redundant on elves and wouldn't stack with great weapons. Secondly, Im with Wisetiger on this. Models dont lose special rules unless it specifically states, like frenzy for example. When a model with ASF is equipped with a great weapon they benefit from both ASF and ASL, meaning they carry both rules. How else can you explain the +2S bonus without having ASL apply regardless of any other rules the model may have. Question is... simply. Do Dark Elf Dreadspears get rerolls against High Elf White lions. I would say NO, both models have the ASF rule. Hatred gives the DE the slight edge here giving them a reroll only in the first round.. Without it, how could the WL strike at I5 and be S6?