mount rules question

[Wiccus]

So a character riding a monstrous beast counts as monstrous cav. Does this mean his unit type changes to mon cav? I am mainly curious for the purposes of look out sir. Would he get it from beasts or cav?

[Raindog]

I am not sure what you are asking.

[rudra34]

If he is mounted on a monstrous beast he becomes monstrous cav.  In that case, he can only get a LOS save from other monstrous cav models.  Regular cavalry isn't going to cut it.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Are you talking about mounting a monster like a dragon, or a monstrous cav like a Pegasus?

 

The second part of the question looks like you are referring to monsters which have two separate profile wounds. Those can not join units so no look out sirs for them. If they are riding a monstrous cav model then yes, if they are in a Monsterous Cav unit they get a look out sir roll but there is only one wound profile number the mount and rider share. So you don't get a choice.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Each model has a unit type, not each statline.

What I mean by that is a Chaos Lord (the statline) isn't anything until all the options are selected.

 

Select no mount and he's infantry, buy him a horse and he's cavalry, buy him a Juggernaut and he's monstrous cavalry, etc...

 

A "Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut" model is monstrous cavalry would get look out sir from other monstrous cavalry.  It wouldn't get look out sir from infantry (despite being part Chaos Lord) and wouldn't get it from monstrous beasts (despite being part Juggernaut).

 

The armybook encourages you to think of him as infantry that becomes cavalry or whatnot, I find it tidier to think of him as not having a unit type at all until his mount options are nailed down.

[MexicanNinja]

So a character riding a monstrous beast counts as monstrous cav. Does this mean his unit type changes to mon cav? I am mainly curious for the purposes of look out sir. Would he get it from beasts or cav?

I will have to look at the specific wording of the rule.  However, I'm pretty certain that they need to be the same base size, not unit type, to get the "look out sir" roll.

[Wiccus]

I thought it was a pretty clear question but I can see how it may be confusing.

 

I am talking about daemonic steeds. They are listed as monstrous beasts in their unit entry. Under the monstrous beasts entry it says that characters use the rules for mon cav when riding them but it didn't say that they change unit type.

 

My understanding of the rules is that you get look out sir saves from the same unit type. Does base size affect look out sir as well?

 

I am trying to write a list with a character on a daemonic mount and I was just seeing if there was a way to protect him from cannons and stuff

[McNathanson]

Base size doesn't matter, it's unit type.  

 

So yes, to protect him, you need a unit of five or more models of Monstrous Cav within 3", or he needs to join a unit of Monstrous Cav of 5 or more models!

"If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of
any kind (including shots fired using ballistic
skill, templates and so on) a 'Look Out Sir!'
roll can be attempted, provided there is a
friendly unit consisting of five or more models
of the character's troop type within 3 inches."
- WFB 8th ed. p97

"If a character is hit by such an attack, and he is
in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models
(excluding the champion, if there is one) and he
is of the same troop type as the unit, then his
controlling player is permitted to make a 'Look
Out Sir!' roll to save him from harm. This
works exactly as the 'Look Out Sir!' rule
described for unit champions on page 93.
Simply put, on a roll of 2 or more, the hit does
not strike the character, but instead is allocated
to a rank-and-ftle model. If there are less than 5
rank-and-ftle models, the character does not get
a Look Out Sir! roll and is hit."
- WFB 8th ed. p99

[MexicanNinja]

Ok, I've done some research.  Here are some answers to your questions.

 

1) A character mounted on a monstrous beasts follows the rules for monstrous cavalry.

 

2) Under the character rules they follow the rules for characters and also gain the rules for the type of mount they are riding.  This would mean that your character on a daemonic steed gains the monstrous cavalry rule.

 

3) I was incorrect, you only get "look out sir" rolls from units of the same unit type.

 

4) If you want to protect him you will need to put him in a unit of 3 skull crushers.  However, if you upgrade one of them to a unit champion then you would need a unit of 4.

[MexicanNinja]

 

Base size doesn't matter, it's unit type.  

 

So yes, to protect him, you need a unit of five or more models of Monstrous Cav within 3", or he needs to join a unit of Monstrous Cav of 5 or more models!

"If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of
any kind (including shots fired using ballistic
skill, templates and so on) a 'Look Out Sir!'
roll can be attempted, provided there is a
friendly unit consisting of five or more models
of the character's troop type within 3 inches."
- WFB 8th ed. p97

"If a character is hit by such an attack, and he is
in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models
(excluding the champion, if there is one) and he
is of the same troop type as the unit, then his
controlling player is permitted to make a 'Look
Out Sir!' roll to save him from harm. This
works exactly as the 'Look Out Sir!' rule
described for unit champions on page 93.
Simply put, on a roll of 2 or more, the hit does
not strike the character, but instead is allocated
to a rank-and-ftle model. If there are less than 5
rank-and-ftle models, the character does not get
a Look Out Sir! roll and is hit."
- WFB 8th ed. p99

Monstrous cavalry only need ranks of 3 to count as a rank.  However, like I stated above, you need a complete rank of 3 and if one of the 3 is a unit champion then you wouldn't get a "look out sir" roll.

[McNathanson]

Monstrous cavalry only need ranks of 3 to count as a rank.  However, like I stated above, you need a complete rank of 3 and if one of the 3 is a unit champion then you wouldn't get a "look out sir" roll.

 

Where does the rank come in?  Is that in a FAQ or something, or is it elsewhere in the book?

[MexicanNinja]

MRB, page 83:

A rank of monstrous cavalry needs only three models to count for rank bonuses, steadfast, and so on.

 

MRB, page 93:

"LOOK OUT SIR"

A "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll cannot be made if there are less than five rank-and file models (including the musician and standard bearer, but not the champion) left in the unit.

[McNathanson]

"Rank-and-file" just means "non-champion" in this case… the rank bonus isn't relevant to Look Out Sir! as far as I can tell.

[MexicanNinja]

It means the following:

 

If you have an infantry or cavalry unit with only 5 rank and file models and one of them is a unit champion you cannot make a "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll.

 

If you have a monstrous infantry or monstrous cavalry unit with only 3 rank and file models and one of them is a unit champion then you cannot make a "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll.

 

It has nothing to do with rank bonuses.  However, this is the main reason I don't take unit champions in a lot of my units.  If that unit, in my case infantry or cavalry, get reduced to 5 models and one of them is a unit champion then I am not allowed to make a "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll.

[Fixxer]

no, you need 5 MC models to get the look out sir, and one of them cannot be a champion. NtK is quoting the FAQ... 

 

Look out sir has nothing to do with rank bonuses.

[MexicanNinja]

no, you need 5 MC models to get the look out sir, and one of them cannot be a champion. NtK is quoting the FAQ... 

 

Look out sir has nothing to do with rank bonuses.

That is incorrect.  If you read the rules in the MRB for monstrous infantry and monstrous cav, it clearly states then they only need ranks of 3 instead of ranks of 5.  The FAQ doesn't state anything about mountrous infantry or monstrous cav needing 5 models per rank.

 

Again, I have stated that rank bonuses have nothing to do with "LOOK OUT SIR!" rolls.

[McNathanson]

MRB, page 83:

A rank of monstrous cavalry needs only three models to count for rank bonuses, steadfast, and so on.

 

MRB, page 93:

"LOOK OUT SIR"

A "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll cannot be made if there are less than five rank-and file models (including the musician and standard bearer, but not the champion) left in the unit.

 

 

Wait I think I get what you're saying.  Are you saying the "and so on" in the above rules quote includes Look Out Sir requirement for 5 non-champion, non-character models of the same troop type?

 

I might buy that argument, except why then would the Ogre Kingdom Look Out Gnoblar even exist?  If I'm not mistaken, the Gnoblar reduces the number of models required for Look Out Sir from 5 to 3.  The OK book came out after the 8th ed BRB.  So to me, that makes it clear that "and so on" does NOT apply to Look Out Sir.

 

What do you think MN?

[MexicanNinja]

 

Wait I think I get what you're saying.  Are you saying the "and so on" in the above rules quote includes Look Out Sir requirement for 5 non-champion, non-character models of the same troop type?

 

I might buy that argument, except why then would the Ogre Kingdom Look Out Gnoblar even exist?  If I'm not mistaken, the Gnoblar reduces the number of models required for Look Out Sir from 5 to 3.  The OK book came out after the 8th ed BRB.  So to me, that makes it clear that "and so on" does NOT apply to Look Out Sir.

 

What do you think MN?

 

Yes, the "and so on" includes the rule for "LOOK OUT SIR!" rolls.  Any time the MRB refers to a rank and file rule, if you are MI or MC, you only need 3 rank and file models.

 

The Look Out Gnoblar is an army specific rule.  It is an updrade purchased for a character.  An Ogre wouldn't get a "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll if they were in a unit of Gnoblar's.  I would have to look at the army book; however, I think the rule is worded that you remove the Look Out Gnoblar instead of applying the hit onto a rank and file Ogre.

 

It's just like tomb king chariot units.  They are the only army which may have units of chariots.  Those two rules only apply to those specific armies.

 

Army specific rules overrider MRB rules.

[Munkie]

Hmm...seems to me like he would need 5 monstrous cav to get LOS as far as I can tell. It's "5 rank-and-file models" which is not the same thing as "a rank of 5 models." If he needed a rank to protect himself, 3 would work. But nowhere in the LOS rule does it say anything about a rank being the qualifier, just 5 models.

 

The rulebook is more clear on monstrous ranks on page 81. It is explicitly clear that it works for rules that are worded with " a rank of 5 or more models". LOS never mentions ranks, simply rank-and-file troops which isn't the same thing.

[MexicanNinja]

Munkie, that is not what is written in the rulebook.

 

MRB, page 83:

A rank of monstrous cavalry needs only three models to count for rank bonuses, steadfast, and so on.

 

Again, the above quote is what is in the MRB.  It clearly states they only need three models for rank bonuses, steadfast, and SO ON.

 

The "and so on" is what covers them only needing three models for the "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll.

[McNathanson]

MexicanNinja don't get too entrenched… make sure you read the rules for Look Out Gnoblar before making up your mind, if you can, because I *think* the ONLY thing it does is allow an Ogre Character to get a Look Out Sir from 3 Ogres… it does nothing else!  So if Look Out Sir worked the way you are saying, I think that the Look Out Gnoblar would have NO effect.  And OK was written after the BRB.  To me that's pretty compelling; if the arguments above don't do it for you, maybe that does?

 

PS: I know we need the Look Out Gnoblar text, I just don't have it handy :)  I'm just saying don't make your mind up until you've read it!

 

[MexicanNinja]

NTK, yeah, I'll have to look into the Look Out Gnoblar.

 

However, I've been watching a lot of GT coverage, and they are getting "LOOK OUT SIR!" rolls in units of MI and/or MC with only 3 rank and file models.

[McNathanson]

NTK, yeah, I'll have to look into the Look Out Gnoblar.

 

However, I've been watching a lot of GT coverage, and they are getting "LOOK OUT SIR!" rolls in units of MI and/or MC with only 3 rank and file models.

 

Well that's pretty compelling :)

[Munkie]

Munkie, that is not what is written in the rulebook.

 

MRB, page 83:

A rank of monstrous cavalry needs only three models to count for rank bonuses, steadfast, and so on.

 

Again, the above quote is what is in the MRB.  It clearly states they only need three models for rank bonuses, steadfast, and SO ON.

 

The "and so on" is what covers them only needing three models for the "LOOK OUT SIR!" roll.

At the end of the section you keep quoting, it refers to page 81. Read that. It maces it explicitly clear that the "and so on" is describing all situations related to ranks. This is not one of those.

[Iraf]

I believe Munkie is correct. I used to play it that way (3 for LOS), yet after reading all the relevant sections I've never seen any compelling evidence that Monstrous only need 3 models for a LOS roll. The first compelling thing I've heard is you saying that GT are ruling it that way.

could you link an example? I'm now intrigued.