Bosco Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 So a conversation with @Weav at game night got me thinking about playing 40k again. I'd started collecting a new (to me) eldar army a while back and would like to make some progress on them if I'm suitably motivated. I've played a single (500 point) game of 8th edition, which I liked well enough, and have the main (8th) rule book and (8th) army book(s) as well as the 2017 Chapter Approved. Do I need any other resources other than a FAQ from the GW site to have the current info for army building/planning? I know there was some significant shift in 8th gameplay not too long ago, but can't recall if it was contained in the chapter approved or elsewhere. I'll be the first to admit I haven't followed much news or threads to help myself, which I will do later when I have more time to dedicate to it. As for the army options, I have a fairly decent collection to work with and plan to build all variety of bikers/grav-tanks/etc. along with a unit or two of dire avengers, ~40 guardians with a couple grav-weapons platforms and a couple units of war walkers. I'm well past worrying about a competitive build/list, but don't want to melt off the table in the opening two turns. I'd prefer to focus on jetbikes and vypers since they're iconic units for Saim Hann IMO, but am not opposed to using falcons/serpents/prisms/etc. as well for supporting elements. Not sure if war walkers are the best fit for the army goals, but I can see justifying them as a scouting element. Ultimately, I want to build towards using this army for OFCC participation in future years, so a nice middle ground for being competitive and instead focusing on representing the faction and I'll be painting myself silly if it happens. Watching Saim Hann players in the past, the army was a constant dance of shifting focus and minimizing return fire. I assume it still plays much the same in the current edition. Anything I should specifically include or exclude to properly support the theme not already mentioned? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 Being that they have a codex now, you are supposed to be using it instead of Index. vk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted July 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Being that they have a codex now, you are supposed to be using it instead of Index. vk Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post; I've got the Craftworld codex, not the xenos index. Thank you though, I see where it might have been vague with 'army books'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weav Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 As long as I don’t lose you in Blood Bowl then I’m happy we discussed it! 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 Well you can close your eyes and randomly pick a unit in the codex and 9 out 10 times it will be a decent unit. Saim Hann is nice! You have a excellent stratagems when combined with shining Spears. Farseers on bikes is also an great choice to support the shining Spears. A aoutoch (eldar capt?) On a bike with a certain relic is an amazing scalpel to murder units. Wave serpents are great for all kind of jobs. Like literally everything. Both versions of the Jets are also superb. Basically, some troops in wave serpents, 2 x farseers on bikes, a unit of 9 shining Spears, a couple units if regular bikes, a couple planes is a absolutely awesome core to a saim hann army. Not completely skewed toward competitive play, but also not a list that will roll over to a stiff breeze. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 7:19 PM, Weav said: As long as I don’t lose you in Blood Bowl then I’m happy we discussed it! Haha, no worries about that. Blood Bowl has become my go-to game on tabletop and PC. Maybe someday I'll get better at it. How many command points (CP) is a reasonable target for an average tournament scale army? If my battle-forged army (3CP base?) was the basic detachment (battalion; HQ and a few troops, +5CP) and added an Outrider detachment (+1CP) is that likely plenty (9CP) or do I need more? Could I get away with fewer CP and run two Outrider detachments instead to go crazy with fast Attack choices? I've run inventory and assuming I assemble everything as intended I can choose from: Autarch skyrunner with a lance Farseer skyrunner 9 warlock skyrunners Farseer on foot (eldrad?) Maugan Ra 51 guardians with 2 support weapons (intended to build them as bright lance and missile launcher) 20 dire avengers (3 exarchs with 1 each dual catapults, shield and glaive, and pistol and sword) 6 windriders with shuriken cannon 6 windriders with scatter lasers 6 windriders 9 shining spears, including exarchs 3 vypers with dual shuriken cannons 3 vypers with bright lance or missile launcher (not glued yet, could go either way 5 war walkers (3 dual missile launcher, 2 missile launcher/scatter laser) 2 nightspinners (the tank with the filament cannons) 1 fire prism 2 wave serpents with twin shuriken cannons and shuriken cannon 1 wave serpent with twin shuriken cannons and twin catapults 3 grav tanks that can be either falcons or wave serpents (depending on a few factors I might be able to make them convertible by swapping the turrets These can have just about anything as the secondary weapon (shuriken cannon/bright lance/scatter laser/starcannon/missile launcher) and the wave serpent builds would likely have most options as well More than enough for a few versions of the intended list in a few different builds. Once I've picked up an ultrasonic cleaner and an air compressor I'll get started stripping and painting/repainting everything. I should hopefully have things looking playable in the next couple months. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, Bosco said: Haha, no worries about that. Blood Bowl has become my go-to game on tabletop and PC. Maybe someday I'll get better at it. How many command points (CP) is a reasonable target for an average tournament scale army? If my battle-forged army (3CP base?) was the basic detachment (battalion; HQ and a few troops, +5CP) and added an Outrider detachment (+1CP) is that likely plenty (9CP) or do I need more? Could I get away with fewer CP and run two Outrider detachments instead to go crazy with fast Attack choices? 10 seems to be the average. That's a Battalion and 2 other detachments with +1 CP, plus the base 3. If your army is very CP dependent, more is common, but not all armies rely heavily on CP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 Eldar do have a lot of really good Stratagems, so you'll be able to use as many as you can manage to get. That said, starting with the 8-10 from Battle-Forged, a Battalion, and maybe one or two 1CP Detachments should give you a feel for whether you've got enough, or if you want to try for a double Battalion or Brigade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 So based off what you have available to you with the units you listed, I think you can make a fluffy and competitive list like this one; ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [76 PL, 1300pts] ++ Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 108pts]: Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Laser Lance, Shimmerplume of Achillrial, Twin Shuriken Catapult Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 135pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade + Troops + Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender GuardianDefenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender + Fast Attack + Vypers [12 PL, 225pts] . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult + Heavy Support + Fire Prism [9 PL, 165pts]: Shuriken Cannon + Dedicated Transport + Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines Wave Serpent [9 PL, 139pts]: Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Vectored Engines ++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [36 PL, 697pts] ++ CraftworldAttribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade + Fast Attack + Shining Spears [14 PL, 281pts] . 8x Shining Spear: 8x Laser Lance, 8x Twin Shuriken Catapult . Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult Windriders [4 PL, 84pts] . 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser Windriders [4 PL, 84pts] . 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser Windriders [4 PL, 69pts] . 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 3x Twin Shuriken Catapult Windriders [4 PL, 69pts] . 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 3x Twin Shuriken Catapult ++ Total: [112 PL, 1997pts] ++ Almost everything has the fly rule and ridiculous movement. Plenty of pychic powers, tons of "rending" and s6 shooting. It's got anti-tank with the vipers and fire prism. A decent amount of close combat with the Autarch and shining Spears. And it has what all Saim Hann armies need. Tons of bikes! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 I’m looking to have an outrider attachment to my Harlequin army - I like this thread for ideas 🙂 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 7 hours ago, SPaceORK said: So based off what you have available to you with the units you listed, I think you can make a fluffy and competitive list like this one; Fairly close to a list I had scribbled up previously, with a few options shifted around. I like the dual shuriken cannon vypers as a trio; lots of speed to help offset the shorter range and gobs of shots to offset my luck with to-hit rolls and favor a couple warlock skyrunners over a farseer on foot (though they aren't terribly slow either compared to most). Is MSU frowned upon (again?) or is it less competitive in 8th than it had been in previous versions? I want to avoid any general build that is 'cheesy' for what will likely be casual play 99% of the time. I assume it will be a relatively low model count list (unless I fill the ranks with guardian defenders, but then they need a flying bus to keep up with everyone else). Jet bikes and tooled-up jet bike variants/characters seem to eat up the points quickly; looks like a steep learning curve to keep dancing units out of range/sight. I've generally found that having more targets in a low count list helps soften the blow when I inevitably leave a unit exposed or vulnerable. With my current (and largely theoretical/academic) understanding of the relative durability of my options for this army in 8th, pretty much anything short of a grav-tank will melt under any focus from an opposing force unless it is very heavily buffed, and odds are I can only protect one such unit at a time like that, though 8th in general seems like a painfully lethal edition in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 MSU is always good unless there are measures built in to counter it, like the 30K Unit pricing, where the cost per Model goes down as you add more dudes, or including Kill Points in every Mission. I haven't heard anyone call it cheesy in a while, tho, other than truly ludicrous examples, like my (fortunately now illegal) 18 Assassin list, where my Unit count and Model count were the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Bosco said: Is MSU frowned upon (again?) or is it less competitive in 8th than it had been in previous versions? I want to avoid any general build that is 'cheesy' for what will likely be casual play 99% of the time. I, personally, frown on MSU when it clear that the player is taking inadequate, bare bones, troops so they can feature lots of command points, which just slow down the game. That whole min/max army build gives me a bit a scowl. That said, I'll still have a good time playing with you, it's just a peeve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 19 hours ago, Bosco said: Fairly close to a list I had scribbled up previously, with a few options shifted around. I like the dual shuriken cannon vypers as a trio; lots of speed to help offset the shorter range and gobs of shots to offset my luck with to-hit rolls and favor a couple warlock skyrunners over a farseer on foot (though they aren't terribly slow either compared to most). Well the wave serpents have triple shuriken cannons, and I felt you needed anti-tank so Vypers with lasers! The Farseer on foot rides with the guardians so he can buff them up when you decide to dump them out. Is MSU frowned upon (again?) or is it less competitive in 8th than it had been in previous versions? I want to avoid any general build that is 'cheesy' for what will likely be casual play 99% of the time. I didn't know MSU was ever frowned upon? If anything MSU might be kinda weak now, unless your some form of elf. With what you currently own, while you'll avoid being cheesy, anything you build is probably going to fall into the "casually competitive" I assume it will be a relatively low model count list (unless I fill the ranks with guardian defenders, but then they need a flying bus to keep up with everyone else). Jet bikes and tooled-up jet bike variants/characters seem to eat up the points quickly; looks like a steep learning curve to keep dancing units out of range/sight. I've generally found that having more targets in a low count list helps soften the blow when I inevitably leave a unit exposed or vulnerable. Eldar are difficult to play. But then again they are probably the best codex when played alone (I think they just edge out guard) and are probably the second best codex when allies are used . The one thing eldar don't do well is spam tons of models. Which is fine for a dying race... With my current (and largely theoretical/academic) understanding of the relative durability of my options for this army in 8th, pretty much anything short of a grav-tank will melt under any focus from an opposing force unless it is very heavily buffed, and odds are I can only protect one such unit at a time like that, though 8th in general seems like a painfully lethal edition in general. If you've already been tinkering with something close to the list above, then your on the right track to absolutely melt everything you dedicate fire to. Short of a knight, but thats what bright lances and fire prisms are for (harlequin bikes really excel in the knight killing department, so if that becomes a problem...) As for you melting to return fire? Well your the wrong craftworld to really mitigate that. You have to dodge, dip, duck, dive and dodge your way out of danger. Reply's in Bold. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 9:51 PM, InfestedKerrigan said: Being that they have a codex now, you are supposed to be using it instead of Index. vk pretty sure GW have explicitly stated that you can choose to use index entries whenever you want - there's nothing stopping it whatsoever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Dusldorf said: pretty sure GW have explicitly stated that you can choose to use index entries whenever you want - there's nothing stopping it whatsoever. Pretty sure they explicitly stated the opposite. That is, index is only avaiable for units not represented by codex. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Pretty sure they explicitly stated the opposite. That is, index is only avaiable for units not represented by codex. Unless the unit has options only found in the index. Then you are supposed to use the index version instead of the current version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 Yeah, they made up a flowchart. I think it's in the FAQ section on the Warhammer Community site. Basically, the Indices are only used for Models that don't have a Codex entry, whether that's because of the Unit as a whole not having an entry in the Codex, or just an upgrade/option not having an entry in the Codex. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 oh cool. the flowchart does say that you can choose which source to use if the index and codex wargear options don't match, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 48 minutes ago, Dusldorf said: oh cool. the flowchart does say that you can choose which source to use if the index and codex wargear options don't match, though. Yeah, I wonder how long it'll take for them to go "those are legacy units/gear not available in matched play." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted July 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 Ok, how about something like this? It has almost no melee component, but has a few relatively manageable dedicated-role units. ++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [42 PL, 746pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 108pts]: Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Shuriken Pistol, The Novalance of Saim-Hann, Twin Shuriken Catapult + Fast Attack + Vypers [12 PL, 210pts] . Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon . Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon . Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon Windriders [8 PL, 168pts] . 6x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 6x Scatter Laser Windriders [8 PL, 168pts] . 6x Windrider - Shuriken Cannon: 6x Shuriken Cannon Windriders [8 PL, 92pts] . 4x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 4x Twin Shuriken Catapult ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [70 PL, 1252pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 135pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade + Troops + Dire Avengers [6 PL, 140pts] . 9x Dire Avenger: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult . Dire Avenger Exarch: Shimmershield & Power Glaive Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 105pts]: 10x Guardian Defender . Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Bright Lance Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 105pts]: 10x Guardian Defender . Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Bright Lance + Heavy Support + Night Spinner [8 PL, 140pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult Night Spinner [8 PL, 140pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult + Dedicated Transport + Wave Serpent [9 PL, 134pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent [9 PL, 134pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent [9 PL, 149pts]: Star Engines, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Vectored Engines ++ Total: [112 PL, 1998pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe I could split up the two 6-strong windrider units with heavy weapons into four 3-strong units, but it feels a bit advantageous. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 I'm not super stoked about the Nightspinners. Being only s7 against the amount of t8 out there is a little rough. I like em, just not as much as bright lances. I would split the windrunners up into 3 simply cause of moral and late game objective grabbing. Also having vectored engines (-1 to hit when it advances) help with survivability of the wave serpents... ...Which should be filled with your guardians and avengers. Which I don't think you plan to do cause you gave them a weapons platform (bright lances are good though!). Having your "slow" squishy troops out in the open is bad idea when they have such lovely metal (bone?) boxes to hide in. These are all minor things and you probably won't even notice them anyways if your playing a more casual game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 5 hours ago, SPaceORK said: ...Which should be filled with your guardians and avengers. Which I don't think you plan to do cause you gave them a weapons platform (bright lances are good though!). Having your "slow" squishy troops out in the open is bad idea when they have such lovely metal (bone?) boxes to hide in. weapons platforms can go inside of transports - they have the infantry keyword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted July 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 I figured the two guardian squads would hold any backfield objectives and use the bright lances for vehicle hunting at range, using their transports as midrange fire support. If/when opposing forces close in on them they can either hop in the bus and scoot away or spray shuriken at them and hope to hold out. The dire avengers with their more survivable transport would be my advance troops unit, intending to be better at reaching an objective and then surviving once they're on site. As survivable as eldar infantry are anyways. While I definitely agree the fire prism is more useful in many cases, I'm generally more worried about dealing with infantry in larger numbers. The ability to fire 48" away without LOS is pretty appealing in an army that wants to hide, and when the dice are hot it has a great weapon. Between the volume of S6/7 shots and the to-wound roll rules of this edition along with access to rerolls and weapon AP changes on a 6 for several of the weapons, etc. I'm not terribly worried about T8+ targets in casual environments... on paper anyways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 Just some thoughts: -Army has only 2 units with melee weapons, and those 2 units are your Warlord and a Troops unit. Not overly expendable units. -Army has only 2 S8+ ranged weapons (both bright lances) in two weak squads (guardians). -Of the army's weapons, only the lances (bright lance and nova lance) have any AP without getting good rolls to wound. Because of these above, I think you will struggle against armies with good saves and against melee armies (if they can catch you or make you come to them). T8+ enemies will also be a real challenge. -No weapons with more than 48" of range. Only 2 units with more than 36" of range. This last one might not matter, but it can matter because some opponents may out range you AND not be opponents you want to get closer to. Additionally, your only S8+ weapons have only 36" of range, so you may find your guardians inadequate as backfield units since they can't target the whole table from the backfield of a 6'x4' table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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