Tau...

[Guest]

Hmm...after talking to @Lyraeus about multi-Kulture Ork armies, I'm noticing that TAU have quite a few options that benefit a multi-Sept force.

For example, markerlights do not apply Sept specific marker counters. So the Sa'cea Stratagem which adds markerlight counters would be able to benefit an allied TAU force.

TAU Ethereals apply their buffs to any Sept. Which, amusingly, means that Sa'cea Ethereals can share their improved leadership between multiple Septs.

TAU Tidewall buildings, can embark any Sept (including a mix of Septs).

 

[Lyraeus]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Hmm...after talking to @Lyraeus about multi-Kulture Ork armies, I'm noticing that TAU have quite a few options that benefit a multi-Sept force.

For example, markerlights do not apply Sept specific marker counters. So the Sa'cea Stratagem which adds markerlight counters would be able to benefit an allied TAU force.

TAU Ethereals apply their buffs to any Sept. Which, amusingly, means that Sa'cea Ethereals can share their improved leadership between multiple Septs.

TAU Tidewall buildings, can embark any Sept (including a mix of Septs).

 

Yes... Yes... Let the soup take you! 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Yes... Yes... Let the soup take you! 

For the record, when talking about Imperial Soup, taking lots of factions in the SAME CODEX is not the problem.

[Lyraeus]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

For the record, when talking about Imperial Soup, taking lots of factions in the SAME CODEX is not the problem.

Eh, it's still soup.

Just limited and definitely min maxing soup

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Eh, it's still soup.

Just limited and definitely min maxing soup

3 detachments from the SAME codex? Hard to consider that soup, in my opinion.

[Lyraeus]

7 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

3 detachments from the SAME codex? Hard to consider that soup, in my opinion.

But it is considered soup. You are using 3 different abilities l, access to multiple relics not in your first choice, and stratagems 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

But it is considered soup. You are using 3 different abilities l, access to multiple relics not in your first choice, and stratagems 

But that's not what makes it soup. Everything in the Ork Codex is ultimately one army. Just like everything in the SM codex is one army. It becomes soup when you start adding other books into it.

And for clarity, all TAU Detachments have access to the same relics and stratagems. We don't lose access to the Sept-specific stratagems by not selecting those Septs. We have them, we just don't have any eligible models to use them on.

Like if I have no Battlesuits in my TAU army, there's a whole bunch of stratagems I can't use, but I still have access to them.

[Ish]

Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and Black Templars in one army seems soup-y to me.

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Ish said:

Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and Black Templars in one army seems soup-y to me.

Why?

If all your rules come from one book, it's hardly soup. That's like saying Deathwatch is soup.

[Lyraeus]

4 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Why?

If all your rules come from one book, it's hardly soup. That's like saying Deathwatch is soup.

It's still considered soup by the community because you are min maxing abilities which in many cases is the point. 

 

Case and point is a brigade of the Imperial Guard Loyay 32 which you don't care about the models but you want the cheap CP. 

I get your point that it's about different codicies but I get your point. 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

It's still considered soup by the community because you are min maxing abilities which in many cases is the point. 

 

Case and point is a brigade of the Imperial Guard Loyay 32 which you don't care about the models but you want the cheap CP. 

I get your point that it's about different codicies but I get your point. 

If you have a brigade of IG for the cheap CP, and then you have other detachments of IG, I don't see any problem of soup.

The Cheap CP becomes an issue when you use the CP to pay for other codex stratagems. IG is designed to have lots of CP.

 

[Guest]

The other issue would be one of painting. I often see players fielding detachments where everything is painted to same paint scheme, but only certain models are supposed to "count" as being in the same faction. If you want to bring:

1 hour ago, Ish said:

Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and Black Templars in one army

I hardly see any problem provided that the distinction between is very clear cut. They're all models drawn from the same codex, it's not soup.

On the same note, would you consider CSM armies with Fallen and, say, Emperor's Children to be soup? Or Ultramarines and Legion of the Damned?

[Ish]

“Soup” is an inherently subjective thing, I will admit. I feel differently about armies where the sub-factions have traditionally always been independent of one another than those where mixing was more common... So, yes, seeing Word Bearers and Black Legion in one army doesn’t feel as “soupy” to me as seeing Salamanders and Ultramarines. 

I also feel differently if the armies are painted decently, there’s some sort of attempt at a narrative, and it’s not just being done because it’s “more competitive.”

Tell me why a platoon of Guardsmen are fighting alongside your Space Marines, give them both a decent paint job, and show that you put a bit of emotional investment into it and I will react a lot differently than I will if I see a bunch of grey plastic soldiers “because Reddit said I’d be dumb if I didn’t have a CP battery for my Smash Captain.”

It’s a matter of taste. 

[Lyraeus]

24 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

If you have a brigade of IG for the cheap CP, and then you have other detachments of IG, I don't see any problem of soup.

The Cheap CP becomes an issue when you use the CP to pay for other codex stratagems. IG is designed to have lots of CP.

 

Sure but I can do the same in orks. 3x squads of grots 2x Wierdboyz, take blood axes and their 'finkin cap for CP regen and voila. 

It's soup. Same type different flavor 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Ish said:

“Soup” is an inherently subjective thing, I will admit. I feel differently about armies where the sub-factions have traditionally always been independent of one another than those where mixing was more common... So, yes, seeing Word Bearers and Black Legion in one army doesn’t feel as “soupy” to me as seeing Salamanders and Ultramarines. 

I also feel differently if the armies are painted decently, there’s some sort of attempt at a narrative, and it’s not just being done because it’s “more competitive.”

Tell me why a platoon of Guardsmen are fighting alongside your Space Marines, give them both a decent paint job, and show that you put a bit of emotional investment into it and I will react a lot differently than I will if I see a bunch of grey plastic soldiers “because Reddit said I’d be dumb if I didn’t have a CP battery for my Smash Captain.”

It’s a matter of taste. 

I agree with this.

12 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Sure but I can do the same in orks. 3x squads of grots 2x Wierdboyz, take blood axes and their 'finkin cap for CP regen and voila. 

It's soup. Same type different flavor 

Are you suggesting that it's soup if all the models are blood axes, and you just have a blood axe detachment acting as a CP generator for another, more elite blood axe detachment?

[Lyraeus]

21 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

 

Are you suggesting that it's soup if all the models are blood axes, and you just have a blood axe detachment acting as a CP generator for another, more elite blood axe detachment?

I am sating soup is the act of mixing and matching rules either between different codicies or inside the same codex. 

Such as my 750 list of two Kulturs is soup because it is min-maxing rules while not battleforged for that one keyword throughout all detachments. 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I am sating soup is the act of mixing and matching rules either between different codicies or inside the same codex. 

Such as my 750 list of two Kulturs is soup because it is min-maxing rules while not battleforged for that one keyword throughout all detachments. 

Hmm...maybe I'm using the word, "soup," wrong.

I've not associated min-maxing to be the same thing as soup. I mean, they are common together, especially on the internet, but I don't consider them the same thing. You can make a really bad list that doesn't min-max, but is soup. 

I guess the key is that, as the opponent, if it's hard to tell what the opponent is fielding, then we call it soup. It's especially soup if the army has the same paint scheme for multiple factions that use the same type of model...

Regarding your orks. If I look across the table and you've got nothing but orks. And the orks you have are, at a glace, clearly two different factions of orks that I can tell apart as non-ork player, then it's not soup. It's a two part meal. With three detacments it could be a three part meal. But if you tell me those mostly green orks and those other mostly green orks are different factions, that's soup - if the opponent can't distinguish between the factions in your army because they are so very similar, they become one soup.

[Ish]

“Soup” is a means of min/max’ing, but is not synonymous with the same.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Ish said:

“Soup” is a means of min/max’ing, but is not synonymous with the same.

That fits.

[WestRider]

The definition has evolved over the course of 8th. In its first uses, "Soup" referred only to Armies that were mixing different Codices within a given Detachment. Then when GW took that out with the Battle Brothers rule, the term stayed around, but was expanded to any Army that included multiple Codices. I can see it being used for an Army that contains Detachments all from the same Codex, but from different Sub-Factions, but it's definitely a difference of degree. That would be more of a simple French Onion soup compared to the Gumbo we had at the start of the Edition.

[Lord Hanaur]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

But it is considered soup. 

naaaaah

 

[Guest]

Well, anyway, the two paint schemes I was debating between was the WW2 japanese green, and a bright blue. Turns out, Dal'yth colors are green and Sa'cea colors are Blue, so I think I'm going dual faction with my TAU.

Though I wouldn't have both factions in one list until I get them fully painted. 

[Lyraeus]

3 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Hmm...maybe I'm using the word, "soup," wrong.

I've not associated min-maxing to be the same thing as soup. I mean, they are common together, especially on the internet, but I don't consider them the same thing. You can make a really bad list that doesn't min-max, but is soup. 

I guess the key is that, as the opponent, if it's hard to tell what the opponent is fielding, then we call it soup. It's especially soup if the army has the same paint scheme for multiple factions that use the same type of model...

Regarding your orks. If I look across the table and you've got nothing but orks. And the orks you have are, at a glace, clearly two different factions of orks that I can tell apart as non-ork player, then it's not soup. It's a two part meal. With three detacments it could be a three part meal. But if you tell me those mostly green orks and those other mostly green orks are different factions, that's soup - if the opponent can't distinguish between the factions in your army because they are so very similar, they become one soup.

Just look at the main color. Blue orks are usually deffskulls, red is evil sunz, yellow is bad moons. 

There are very few exceptions 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Just look at the main color. Blue orks are usually deffskulls, red is evil sunz, yellow is bad moons. 

There are very few exceptions 

I know. I played orks in 3rd. But there's a difference between painting every ork so that one shoulder pad is the only distinction between kultures, and really painting a proper kulture.

Here's a few (doing it right):

Evil Sunz is:

Goff is:

Death Skullz

 

I would have have no trouble with these.

[Lyraeus]

53 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I know. I played orks in 3rd. But there's a difference between painting every ork so that one shoulder pad is the only distinction between kultures, and really painting a proper kulture.

Here's a few (doing it right):

Evil Sunz is:

Goff is:

Death Skullz

 

I would have have no trouble with these.

Yup. There are very few times I have mixed colors. Mek Gunz are like that but they don't get benefits for kulturs so for them it doesn't matter. They can't get on transports either so meh. 

 

My Warboss is dual color but that's because he gets interchanged between those two factions and I will have an easy way of marking what he is (yay 3d printer!). 

 

You missed Bad Moons which is yellow... The second most evil color there is... Next to white