It's... The take on MexicanNinja's CoK unit thread!!!!!!!!! (Building Challenge)

[HeroZero]

MN- your right that match comes down to strictly who positioned where.

50/50 is still a better odds than anything I've seen so far.

 

Except for maybe Crom/the maruader dude/2 tooled out exalteds. And that's another pure who went where match.

[JMGraham]

Why would anyone fight a deathstar head on? Feed it something, try and control it's movement, and focus on the rest of the army.

 

2 units of 10 Waywatchers and 2 Great Eagles.

[Brother Glacius]

how the hell is this a solo unit challenge when you are using the benefits of the CoB and characters? really? you consider that a solo unit?
Sorry, my BS monitor just went off the scale. How about you pick an actual solo unit and then do comparisons?

[MexicanNinja]

how the hell is this a solo unit challenge when you are using the benefits of the CoB and characters? really? you consider that a solo unit?

Sorry, my BS monitor just went off the scale. How about you pick an actual solo unit and then do comparisons?

If you read the original post it's a solo unit with any characters to put in the unit.  So, yes, it's a unit vs unit challenge.  If you can make a gobo list and stick 10 characters in the unit then rock on.  This operates as a single unit.  My general, BSB, and a unit of CoK.  It's no different than a Bretonnia character basket.  So, BS monitor needed.

[MexicanNinja]

Why would anyone fight a deathstar head on? Feed it something, try and control it's movement, and focus on the rest of the army.

 

2 units of 10 Waywatchers and 2 Great Eagles.

Yes, JMGraham, there is that possibliity.  However, we aren't taking any other units into consideration.  If you want to throw those types of options into the mix, then you need to take into account the following:

 

I have 30 dark riders with repeater crossbows

2 reaper bolt throwers

1 unit of warlocks

Level 1 Shadow Wizard who's only purpose is to miasma someone to drop WS or BS

2 Cold One Chariots

 

I have the tools to shoot down chaff pretty effectively and can also control other movement.  I have started another thread with an open challenge to anyone who would like to kill Malekith.  My army starts off with 34-68 repeater crossbow shots, 2 big bolt shots or 12 repeater shots, and a doombolt.  Those chariots also blow through most chaff or force flees.

 

We could all get into long discussions about how to bait, flee, and redirect.  That's not the topic at hand.  The path laid before us was to build a SINGLE unit, with any legal upgrades and/or characters, to fight it and beat it in a ONE-ON-ONE combat.

[Drak]

two questions: what special rules does malliketh have? something about a 2++?

how wide is units front?

[MexicanNinja]

MN- your right that match comes down to strictly who positioned where.

50/50 is still a better odds than anything I've seen so far.

 

Except for maybe Crom/the maruader dude/2 tooled out exalteds. And that's another pure who went where match.

50/50 is definately good.  This unit is underestimated until the dice start rolling.  The kicker is ASF and MP.  Agaisnt non ASF models/units, I am re-rolling all failed to-hit rolls and failed to-wound rolls (including the cold one knights for re-rolling to wound).  Character placement is a huge factor.

[MexicanNinja]

two questions: what special rules does malliketh have? something about a 2++?

how wide is units front?

 

Malekith: S5, T4, A4 (5 with the death hag in the unit), 2+ armour, 2++ ward against non-magical attacks, 6++ward from cauldron, 4++ against magic (MR2 and 6++), level 4 wizard with dark magic (+5 to cast), if he gets one of more hits on a model with a magic item then on a 4+ a random magic item is destroyed (he can target unit standard bearers and make the banner an mundane banner as well), if he wounds a wizard then they also lose a wizard level on a 4+, if he successfully dispels a spell cast on him or his unit then the casters unit takes D6 S6 hits, during each magic phase (mine and yours) he gains a free power dice if he failed to cast or a free dispel dice if he failed to dispel, 18" LD bubble, eternal hatred (always re-rolls failed to-hit rolls).

[MexicanNinja]

thats a brutal unit. 

Yeah, it's pretty stupid.  Have you seen it anywhere else though?  I got a lot of hate on Druchii.net when I first posted my list months ago.  I was told malekith was a waste of points, that morathi is the only character I should take, the cauldron is a waste in the Cold Ones, and that the army had too many flaws.  I proved them wrong 2 weeks later when I took it to a tournament at Boderlands.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Yeah, it's pretty stupid. Have you seen it anywhere else though? I got a lot of hate on Druchii.net when I first posted my list months ago. I was told malekith was a waste of points, that morathi is the only character I should take, the cauldron is a waste in the Cold Ones, and that the army had too many flaws. I proved them wrong 2 weeks later when I took it to a tournament at Boderlands.

D-net has like two list builds they like. If you post anything else they will make suggestions on changing your list till it is a copy to the netlist.

 

And it also feels like there are two or three real thinkers on there and everyone else is just parroting what they posted.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Also my only issue with that build is its point cost. I remember RD playing his WE against it and kept that unit out of melee for quite sometime. Now I can't judge that unit from that one game but he did a good job making you work for it.

[Veskit]

Ok I would like to point out there is no reason to beat it.  There's a reason deathstars don't exist in our current meta up here, because when you're playing at a high level deathstars don't work.  Nothing to charge 1st turn, divert it for 3 turns, it gets 1-2 turns to do anything (if that) while I destroy the rest of your army with my army that doesn't have deathstars and thus is harder to be bogged down by diverters.  You having a deathstar works wonders for my game as you end up having 1000+ of your army that I don't have to worry about all game. 

 

Talking with Chris Powell, that's exactly how he managed the game against Bronson's Ogres.  When you've got that many points tied up in one unit I get to dictate the game not you.  Even when the unit is as fast as Cold ones.  (obviously some armies like dwarfs don't have diverters in the same sense, but all the top tier armies do have good diversion and all the mid-lower tier armies don't, see a trend??).

[MexicanNinja]

Also my only issue with that build is its point cost. I remember RD playing his WE against it and kept that unit out of melee for quite sometime. Now I can't judge that unit from that one game but he did a good job making you work for it.

He did and I was also testing out certain things like charging malekith out of the unit and charging the cauldron out of the unit. Neither died during the game. I also failed a ton of stupidity checks. Failing 4 or more stupidity cheaks with a LD10 18" re-roll is just not common and is pore dice. You can't do anything about dice rolls. Also, that wasn't a solo unit combat. Of course he's going to stay away from it. Show me a single unit from the WE book that will wreck it. Wild Riders will struggle against it and don't produce the same number of attacks or get the re-rolls to wound. I also had a chariot bounce off the flank of a treekin unit. I failed to do a single wound wih impact hits and attacks. I was also failing charges with certain units and at that time we both played walk between worlds wrong and his unit of sisters was considered ethereal in the 2 rounds of combat with my 10 dark riders. That would have changed the outcome of my right flank. Due to us both thinking they were ethereal I didn't roll attacks because they weren't magical.

 

As far as the points cost. My opponent has to put a lot of work into getting those points and if they are focusing on that unit with the majority of their units then the rest of my army should gain me points through shooting the units shooting at my one unit. Sure, the knights may drop but they're still only about 400 points so I should gain that from my other units shooting, magicing, and fighting other units.  If some kills 8 knights and I have the unit champion or standard bearer left at the end of the game then they get zero points for the knights.  Sure, my opponents nearly gain the kill for my death hag in almost every game but if they don't also kill the cauldron then they also receive zero points for the death hag and just gain the bonus vp for killing the BSB.  I've put more wounds on malekith through rolling 6's on power of darkness and miscasts than anything else.

 

Even in the games when he has miscasted and killed the entire second rank of knights, that unit has charged as well as held off units at full strength for more than 2 rounds of combat.

[MexicanNinja]

Ok I would like to point out there is no reason to beat it.  There's a reason deathstars don't exist in our current meta up here, because when you're playing at a high level deathstars don't work.  Nothing to charge 1st turn, divert it for 3 turns, it gets 1-2 turns to do anything (if that) while I destroy the rest of your army with my army that doesn't have deathstars and thus is harder to be bogged down by diverters.  You having a deathstar works wonders for my game as you end up having 1000+ of your army that I don't have to worry about all game. 

 

Talking with Chris Powell, that's exactly how he managed the game against Bronson's Ogres.  When you've got that many points tied up in one unit I get to dictate the game not you.  Even when the unit is as fast as Cold ones.  (obviously some armies like dwarfs don't have diverters in the same sense, but all the top tier armies do have good diversion and all the mid-lower tier armies don't, see a trend??).

I only partially agree with this statement.  The cauldron can leave the unit at any time she wishes and now you have another real threat to deal with.  I can also dictate the early turn diverters with re-positioning 4 fast units.  Let's say I don't get to charge the first two turns of the game (which is usually typical) I've still crossed 24" and will be able to charge things on turn 3.  Let's say I get steed of shadows and get to move my cauldron behind your lines for rear charges the followiing turn, what then?  There's a serious decision for my opponent to make.  I could stack one flank with 4 fast cav units and be all up in a deployment zone turn 1.  Are my opponenets going to ignore that?  Why wouldn't I send my chariots forward to make my opponents think about where to place their diverter's?  Why wouldn't I shoot diverters with reaper bolt throwers? 

 

This isn't the only tool in my army.  This is just my combat unit.  What happens if I get first turn and I have a bunch of things shooting war machines and/or other "shooty" units before charging them on turn 2?  I have had this conversation with many people.  I can play the non-engage with over half my army.  My opponent can't ignore the other threats in this army.  That's one of things that makes this unit work for my build.  If I'm worried about having to take a frenzy test on LD7 I can screen the unit with a unit of dark riders so there is no charge to declare until the following turn.  I don't rely on this thing getting into combat until about turn 3.  It gives me shooting and magic to take down numbers.  I can reduce numbers with WoP/bladewind, double doombolts, chillwing, black horror, soul stealer.  These are all things I have to consider on when and how I am going to place my units and use them during the first few turns.  I also have to take into account what happens if I go second.

 

I'll gladly let someone play this list against me.  It's not an easy army to play; however, when you are able to get all the synergy working, it is a wonderful sight to behold.

 

Again, there are too many ways to take the discussion about the rest of both armies (yours and mine).  This is just about one on one combat and nothing more.

[BeaverBeliever]

Poison attacks for being a death hag and no armour saves for using the obsidian blade.

 

You can't use Poison with a Magic Weapon (Pg. 73), unless Hags have a special rule.

[Drak]

Vampire Lord

+ Ogre Blade

+ Talisman of Preservation

+ The Other Trickster's Shard

+ Red Fury

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight (+2 Weapon skill, have to issue challenge)

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

 

Vampire

+ Sword of Anti-heroes

+ Potion of Toughness

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

Vampire

+ Nightshroud

+ Warrior Bane

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

 

5 Blood Knights

+ Sword of Swift Slaying

+ Razor Standard

+ Kastellan

+ Musician

+ Standard Bearer

 

 

this would be my answer to your unit. how does it fair up?

[MexicanNinja]

The CoB is the best thing, next to the Warlocks, for the DE. That said I still am not sure of the COK unit attached with it. Does it make the COK better, yes, but WE and Executioners I feel benefit more from it. In this scenario with the new WoC unit the downfall of the Executioners is they attack simultaneous. Still get the ASF rerolls though.

 

Of course MN has found better use for the COK than me and mine still get hosed after I swing.

 

Now what I think is missing in the cross thread topic is resource use. How many points of your army do you use to counter your opponent's unit. My issue with this COK build is that it takes 1000 points, give or take a hundred, to put together. The WoC unit is 40 a model so 20 would only cost 800. What would the outcome be if you pimped that unit with a 1000 points?

 

Let's do a comparrison:

 

Horde of 50  Witches and CoB vs Malekith's "death squad"

1) D6+1 impact hits

2) 5 S4 poison attacks with no armour saves attacks from Death Hag (we'll use the same build as mine for this example)

3) 50 S3 poison attacks from the witches (rank and file and cauldron)

 

My numbers are posted above

 

Witches charge and should do the following:

1) 4 impact hits kill 2 knights

2) Death Hag kills 3 knights (she can't attack malekith because she has to stay in the middle of the unit and I always place malekith on a corner)  (I would assume you wouldn't waste the ogre blade on the death hag and kill the models it's meant for).

3) Witches hit with half their attacks (4's vs 4's) get 25 hits with 4 of them being poison (1 out of every 6 and I'll round up) (I assume they attack the CoK's because the attacks are wasted on Malekith with a 2+/2++)

4) Witches re-roll failed wound and get 19

5) Withces should get 3-4 wounds through (rolling 1's for armour saves I rounded for this)

 

1) My Death Hag kills their Death Hag (I need to kill her because she evaporates my knights).  I get 3 attacks through (4's to hit and rounding up like I did above) 3's to wound with a re-roll to wound get's all three through and with a 5+ ward save the Death Hag shouldn't make the save with three wounds.  However, let's say she does make a ward save.  I'll give my death hag 2 ounds on her.

2) Witches from CoB get 4 attacks through on the death hag and get wounds through.  Their death hag is now dead.

3) CoK's attack and get (I am only down 2 knights from impact hits) and get 7 hits

4) Malekith attacks and hits with 5 (hitting on 3's with external hatred)

5) The knights do 6-7 wounds (wounding on 3's with re-rolls)

6) Malekith wounds 5 (wounding on 2's with re-rolls)

7) We remove models at this point, because everything was simutaneousl up until the next step

8) 4 cold one attacks get 2 hits and 2 wounds

 

Combat Resolution:

Witches have 10-12 wounds +1 for charging +3 for ranks +1 for banner =15-16 CR

Death Squad have 17 wounds+1 for BSB =18 CR

Death Squad wins by 2-3 (and this is assuming I fail more than 1 in 6 roll on a D6 for armour saves) and witches are no longer frenzied

Witches continue to lose the grind.  They just lost a ton of attacks, have to divide attacks between the cauldron, malekith, and one remaining knight.  They are getting many saves forced on the cauldron or death hag, they may kill the knight in the following round, and I seriously doubt they put a wound on malekith.

 

If I charged the withces just swap some combat res around for impact hits and I win by roughly 6 and we get the same results in the following rounds.

 

 

Here's an example for executioners:

1) executioneers have 28 attacks- executioners get 14 hits and 14 wounds (after re-rolling to hit).  I make 7armour/ward saves.  Executioners kill 7 knights. Yes, I am accounting that they will strike after my unit but before my cold ones.

2) Death Hag has the same build as above and produces the same results (5 wounds on knights from impact/no armour saves)

3) Witches on Cauldron get 3 hits and 3 wounds after re-rolls to wound.  Knights make all the armour saves

4) Knights get 8 hits and 8 wounds on executioneers

5) Death hag and cauldron attacks executioneers in this example because I know if I attack the hag and not the executioneers the knights suffer more hit/wounds.  Death hag wound 4 executioneers (hitting on 3's and re-rolling wound rolls).

6) Witches get 4 hits and 3 wounds

7) Malekith hits and wounds 5 (eternal hatred and re-rolling failed wounds)

8 Malekith's cold one get 1 hit and 1 wound

 

Combat Resolution

Executioneers have 11 wounds (lets assume some attacks go into the hag and/or cauldron) +1 for charging +3 for ranks =1 for BSB + 1 for unit standard = 17 CR

Death Squad have 18-21 wounds +1 for BSB = 19-22 CR

Death Squad wins by 2-5 and executineers are no longer frenzied.

 

If I charge them just add 5 CR to death squad (impact hits and attacks from the 2 additoinal knights who don't die from impact hits before attacking).

 

At this point, I issue a challenge with my death hag.  Does my opponent take it with their death hag and now we just punk each other's death hag and the cauldron's get into a slap match until malekith finishes the executioneer's?  He's getting 5 attacks to their 9 attacks.  Malekith suffers 5 hits and 4 wounds (4's to hit, 3's to hit with re-rolls) and gets a 4+/2++.  Malekith kills 5 a turn (3's to hit with eternal hatred and 2's to wound re-rolling failed wounds) and his cold one kill a single executioneer.  My opponent could accept with his unit champion and then I should get close to max CR from the challenge).  He has to take the challenge with either the death hag or the champ because the cauldron has to stay in the middle of the unit and can't be placed in the back rank.  If the death hag doesn't take the challenge the she slaps at malekith.

 

Here's the death hag and malekith:

1) Death Hag gets 2 hits

2) Malekith gets 5 hits (3's to hit and eternal hatred)

3) At this point I roll a D6 and need a 4+ to destroy a magic item.  Since I have been using averages and rounding up, I roll a 4 or higher and the obsidian blade is now destroyed

4) Death Hag gets 2 wounds (4's to wound with re-rolls)

5) Malekith gets 5 wounds (2's to wound with re-rolls)

6) Malekith makes both saves

7) Death Hag takes 3 wounds

[MexicanNinja]

You can't use Poison with a Magic Weapon (Pg. 73), unless Hags have a special rule.

Ok, so let's just take poison out of the equation all together.  She's re-rolling all failed wound rolls and should be wounding most things on 4's so the re-rolls get the wounds through.

 

Thanks for pointing this out though Believer, I greatly appreciate this tip.

[MexicanNinja]

Vampire Lord

+ Ogre Blade

+ Talisman of Preservation

+ The Other Trickster's Shard

+ Red Fury

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight (+2 Weapon skill, have to issue challenge)

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

 

Vampire

+ Sword of Anti-heroes

+ Potion of Toughness

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

Vampire

+ Nightshroud

+ Warrior Bane

+ Quickblood

+ Dread Knight

+ Shield

+ Heavy Armour

+ Barded Nightmare

 

5 Blood Knights

+ Sword of Swift Slaying

+ Razor Standard

+ Kastellan

+ Musician

+ Standard Bearer

 

 

this would be my answer to your unit. how does it fair up?

Let's try it sometime!  I thik that just might do the trick.  On the flip side, good thing I wouldn't have to worry about this outside of this thread because I haven't seen a VC player use blood knights in over 2 years.

[thatdave]

How about:

 

Hellebron on a Cauldron

Death Hag w/ Witchbrew

Master BSB, Armor of Destiny, Sea Dragon Cloak, shield, Dawnstone (2+RR/4++)

33 Witch Elves, full command, Wailing Banner (Fear tests for you, and at a -3)

 

1236 points

 

8-10 S10 attacks @ I9 from Hellebron (goes before any of your attacks).  Those should clear out a number of the COKs.  Most of the rest of the attacks are at lower strength, but there will be a ton of them

 

BTW, how many COK are in the original unit - 14ish?  I'm assuming Malekith is also on a CO?

 

Yeah, it will come down to dice; but I like my chances here.

[Drak]

I'd be down for that, and I only field blood knights for that very reason.

 

on a side note this build can take the charge (IMO) and really dish out the pain if they get the charge (yay lances).

[Bosco]

Giant unit of dwarf slayers?  

I'm not up to speed on WHFB, but 1200ish points of ~90+ slayers that get to swing back regardless of death sounds entertaining.  Salt and pepper with banner, giant slayers, etc. to taste if this would actually be feasible.

[ratrek]

Dave: Why would you clear out knights with Hellebron to start? Presuming she's not in a challenge, I would be more concerns with either killing the Malekith or the Cauldron and probably Malekith more. He can tank everything else in that unit with the 2++ vs non-magical attacks and you don't want him striking afterwards and potentially removing her crazy strength sword just by throwing a couple of dice and generating a hit.

 

Kill Malky, poison the fish out of the Cauldron and let the CoK  be ground down afterewards.

[MexicanNinja]

How about:

 

Hellebron on a Cauldron

Death Hag w/ Witchbrew

Master BSB, Armor of Destiny, Sea Dragon Cloak, shield, Dawnstone (2+RR/4++)

33 Witch Elves, full command, Wailing Banner (Fear tests for you, and at a -3)

 

1236 points

 

8-10 S10 attacks @ I9 from Hellebron (goes before any of your attacks).  Those should clear out a number of the COKs.  Most of the rest of the attacks are at lower strength, but there will be a ton of them

 

BTW, how many COK are in the original unit - 14ish?  I'm assuming Malekith is also on a CO?

 

Yeah, it will come down to dice; but I like my chances here.

I also cause terror and am ITP.  I don't care about fear or terror.  All of our attacks (not counting the cold ones) are simotaneously because we both have ASF.  Initiatve vaules do not matter if we both have ASF.  All ASF attacks are simo and niether of us get to re-roll.  Again, hellebron doesn't get to attack malekith and I'll try to draw her in with a challenge from my death hag.  You'd have to take the challenge with either the wtich champ or bsb.  If you deline I stick your BSB in back rank.  I've used hellebron several times and without a save other than the 5++ from the cauldron she dies to the death hag/cauldron witches attacks.  I'll ignore the master and just attack witches.  He has no magic weapon and is only S4 so I could care less about his attacks.  You also can't have armour of destiny and a dawnstone.

 

There are only 9 CoK's.  Malekith on Cold one + Death hag on Cauldron + 9 Cold One knights = 11 models in the unit

[thatdave]

The Terror banner was an afterthought.  My initial plan, and what I would likely go back to, is the Flaming Banner on the unit.  And I get a couple more Witches out of the deal, or some other goodie on one of the characters.

 

I would assume that, as the Cauldron has to be in the middle, that Malekith would not be in BtB.  This has been confirmed above.