The Age of Sigmar begins...

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I got it guys, instead of dice we can just use our imagination for how wounds are dealt. It works for kids playing with Legos.

[Iraf]

I think they just made Fantasy a gateway game to real gaming.

[indytims]

I got it guys, instead of dice we can just use our imagination for how wounds are dealt. It works for kids playing with Legos.

 

The mechanic for dealing wounds is there, though - and it really is pretty much the same old system from 8th, except they've removed the WS comparison, and the STR vs Toughness comparison. But the same mechanic is there: roll to hit, roll to wound. Then you get to roll to save. 'Rend' values are pretty much negative save modifiers due to weapons that were higher STR weapons in previous editions.

 

The only real thing you have to 'imagine', is the army build limits. There's literally -nothing- there, and I still can not fathom why GW would do this - except for some weak attempt to sell models. "Damn! Johnny outnumbers me! I will have to pick up another box of Chaos Warriors this payday to close the gap!".

[Brother Glacius]

One more month until kings of war. ????

[Murphy'sLawyer]

The mechanic for dealing wounds is there, though - and it really is pretty much the same old system from 8th, except they've removed the WS comparison, and the STR vs Toughness comparison. But the same mechanic is there: roll to hit, roll to wound. Then you get to roll to save. 'Rend' values are pretty much negative save modifiers due to weapons that were higher STR weapons in previous editions.

 

The only real thing you have to 'imagine', is the army build limits. There's literally -nothing- there, and I still can not fathom why GW would do this - except for some weak attempt to sell models. "Damn! Johnny outnumbers me! I will have to pick up another box of Chaos Warriors this payday to close the gap!".

LOL.

 

I was trying to be outrageous and silly but I guess with these rules it is hard to tell.

[rudra34]

I'm kinda bummed because I really want to like this game, but the more I read the rules the less I understand it.

[Lion of Flanders]

I've read the rules and a few of the army scrolls....and I really can't imagine how this is a game. It seems completely up to the players to design forces that are even close to balanced. It's just weird. Fundamentally, it seems like a EZ game to play with my 10 year old. I think I'll try that and see what he thinks.

 

in addition to the stuper simple mechanics, lack of balance, and no force cohesion (I'll take 4 bloodthirsters and 2 steam tanks...and be outnumbered and get to choose my victory conditions) what really bugs me is the the world is no longer interesting. Constant battles to the last warrior standing on freaky mystic battlefields is boring. Where do people live? What do they eat? Is everything in ruins? Civilizations and nation states fighting with each other or fighting to protect themselves from invaders is interesting....this AOS stuff is basically an arcade game with figures....and don't get me started on the figures thus far.

[splinx]

I've read the rules and a few of the army scrolls....and I really can't imagine how this is a game. It seems completely up to the players to design forces that are even close to balanced. It's just weird. Fundamentally, it seems like a EZ game to play with my 10 year old. I think I'll try that and see what he thinks.

 

in addition to the stuper simple mechanics, lack of balance, and no force cohesion (I'll take 4 bloodthirsters and 2 steam tanks...and be outnumbered and get to choose my victory conditions) what really bugs me is the the world is no longer interesting. Constant battles to the last warrior standing on freaky mystic battlefields is boring. Where do people live? What do they eat? Is everything in ruins? Civilizations and nation states fighting with each other or fighting to protect themselves from invaders is interesting....this AOS stuff is basically an arcade game with figures....and don't get me started on the figures thus far.

Totally agree with the fluff. I think they are trying to appeal to a generation that wants quick smash and bash games with no depth and cool looking models(even though I think the new empire stuff is blah)

 

It is a fun game I think there will defiantly be Some sort of FAQ needed or a more in depth version once more people are or board.

[dkieft]

I'm kinda bummed because I really want to like this game, but the more I read the rules the less I understand it.

And that sir is your problem. You can't "understand" this in the same way you "understood" real WFB. The rules... easy to understand... the game play, balance, world? Not so much. 'Cause there is nothing to it to form your understanding around.

[Ser Warwick]

Totally agree with the fluff. I think they are trying to appeal to a generation that wants quick smash and bash games with no depth and cool looking models(even though I think the new empire stuff is blah)

 

It is a fun game I think there will defiantly be Some sort of FAQ needed or a more in depth version once more people are or board.

Don't play Fantasy, but was considering building an army after the dust settles with these rules and I can get a pulse on the game locally. According to the locals it's looking like a no go. Guess warhammer total war will have to do.

 

I agree on the lore points. I like space marines, and the sigmarites aren't terribly designed, but it doesn't seem like they have any culture to them. The lore might work as a mythic backdrop that precedes a more human struggle, but battles aren't as interesting (to me at least) in a vacuum. I don't get the sense that sigmarites shoot the [big bad swear word] or even [big bad swear word] at all between battles. It's difficult to relate to faceless gods who exist only for battle. The models themselves actually portray their revealed fluff of legendary heroes losing their identity as they are resurrected continually quite well. Didn't mean to get too meta there. There is some potential tragedy in that thread of sacrificing identity for a greater purpose that could admittedly make for some decent lore for the sigmarites.

 

Now, if they pulled the focus back to the mortal survivors, with a fantasy/apocalyptic aesthetic, I could buy into that. Just scattered, broken and rebuilt civilizations trying to hack it while the gods are battling it out. Maybe with the rumored bigger rule book and/or points cost additions there will be models that represent this? Then one might demo the game with AoS, and introduce a more complete edition as "Yes, Sigmar continues to open the realmgates, this is how the Gods fight, but we are no Gods."

[pretre]

PENDING Warhammer Fantasy Rumors - July 2015

via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I’m hesitant to call it a “Summer Campaign”, because a majority of the
bigger stuff will come out after the summer is over, but the big new
selling point of AoS is going to be vast narrative campaigns and story
arcs. The Realmgate War is going to be the first of these campaigns.

Future campaigns might be more focused, but RgW is primarily going to a
walking tour of the new setting. The release pattering is going to be
formulaic: Here’s the new world (Sans Azyr and Chaos, we go to them during
the final), here’s the evil force that’s making everyone’s life awful,
here’s the good force that’s going to liberate them. Inky, Blinky, Pinky,
and Clyde each get their own named faction, and The Horned Rat and Nagash
will each get their respective 15 minutes of fame.

Once all the new factions are introduced, and the war scrolls proper are
put up, that’s when we finally get the BrB. Don’t think of this as 9th
edition, think of this as the first expansion to Age of Sigmar. It’ll be
much smaller than a core rulebook, but larger than a codex, and will look
and feel a lot like the Horus Heresy books from FW. There will be rules
for list building, missions, campaigns, as well as all the “advanced
rules”, more rules for gods, magic, heroes, loot, more terrain abilities,
and special rules for games on specific realm. Then there’s going to be a
few weeks of 40k, followed by a few weeks to wrap up the Realmgate War.
The conclusion will take the form of an actual, factual summer campaign, as
the forces of order launch an assault on the forces of chaos undecided on
their home turf, all while death and destruction go around making sure
everyone’s having a bad day.

Then a few months later the cycle starts again. There’s going to be a few
weeks of breathing time, setting up the campaigns, introducing characters,
factions, and whatnot, followed by an expansion book that’ll expand on the
rules and let people play their own mini campaigns, followed then a big
conclusion with plenty of heroic deaths and things going south for everyone.

[dkieft]

stuff

If this is really their plan, I can't say that I am amused. While it may be cool to eventually have a better game out of this... I don't see many people jumping on board until they see what it pans out to be.

 

I would hazard a guess that once all the factions are out, and they finally put out a composition system, that old armies will not be included and that they are now just there to "fill the void" and keep existing players involved.

 

Edit: one good thing that might come of this model is that maybe, as they develop AoS into a real game they might take player input into account and allow it to shape the game, kind of making this a "Warhammer 9th Edition Beta Test and Development" Stage.

 

But if it is a Beta Testing phase.... GW is trying to make money off of it, which is a crappy move in my book.

[pretre]

/shrug There's been a plethora of rumors either way so we'll have to wait and see.

[indytims]

One more month until kings of war.

 

I thought it was next weekend? July 10th? I am looking forward to reading through the downloadable rules and someone told me it was next weekend, not a month from now. :(

[indytims]

LOL.

 

I was trying to be outrageous and silly but I guess with these rules it is hard to tell.

 

Oh. Sorry. I thought you really were not clear on it and was trying to help. I didn't mean to come off totally oblivious. LOL. :)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Oh. Sorry. I thought you really were not clear on it and was trying to help. I didn't mean to come off totally oblivious. LOL. :)

It is totally good. It made me smile as it kind of proved my point that the game as it stands might be good for young new gamers but it just doesn't have any depth and just feels lacking.

 

I would rather play Mordhiem any day over this as it stands even though some of the Warscrolls have an interesting bases for something better. But my Son's Krosmaster Arena has more depth and replayability than AoS. That's not really giving Krosmaster a complement either.

[indytims]

If this is really their plan, I can't say that I am amused. While it may be cool to eventually have a better game out of this... I don't see many people jumping on board until they see what it pans out to be.

 

I would hazard a guess that once all the factions are out, and they finally put out a composition system, that old armies will not be included and that they are now just there to "fill the void" and keep existing players involved.

 

Edit: one good thing that might come of this model is that maybe, as they develop AoS into a real game they might take player input into account and allow it to shape the game, kind of making this a "Warhammer 9th Edition Beta Test and Development" Stage.

 

But if it is a Beta Testing phase.... GW is trying to make money off of it, which is a crappy move in my book.

 

The details (from an anonymous source, of course) sound like they -could- work really well, especially if the first 'expansion' comes with rules for force construction. I've lived in enough places and played with enough groups to know that people want the ability to make up a list and duke it out. Sure, some will go along with the 'narrative campaign', but the vast majority of players I've gamed with don't care. They want to construct their -own- force in a way they see fit, and clash with someone else building an approximately similar-sized force.

 

So to me, this 'delay' in the first 'expansion' or whatever it is called, seems very unwise. It should have been released to coincide with the box release, I think. BAM - the box comes out and does not contain force-building rules/points/whatever, which I've been told is similar to previous boxes. And launching -immediately- into the 'Realmgate Wars' with the 'BRB' to support it and offer list-building rules would have helped quite a bit to calm the masses. After seeing a few games played now, I still think 90% of the problem is the lack of force composition. I agree with Mikhaila on Dakka - the rules are pretty sound as given, but without force composition rules, you really have to trust your opponent not to go overboard.

 

I think -most- of the current factions will still be the basis of the 'future' factions. I could see Brettonians, for example, being -apart- of a larger faction. The fact that GW provided warscrolls for Brets makes that a reality. No matter -what- their 'campaign system' looks like, a player can simply sub-out one of the factions in the campaign and use his Brets. Will it 'align' with the campaign narrative? Probably not as written, no. But will it allow the Bret player to play his favorite army? Yes.

 

If GW's drive was to totally phase out certain armies, completely - it surprises me they would make warscrolls for them at all. Before someone says, 'No, GW did it so as not to piss off all the fans of faction XXXXX', most people claim that GW doesn't really give a poop about things like that. Of course, that does not guarantee we'll see any NEW models/stats for Brets in the future. They could be used as part of the human faction, and GW can silently hope/assume that Bret players will slowly 'phase over' to buying the newer models to come for the same faction that their Brets are a part of, etc, creating a sort of 'long-term' phase-out.

 

And we can only HOPE that GW will take player-input in mind when creating the next 'expansion' or campaign or whatever. I've seen the claim that this game is a 'living document' of sorts, with the rules/army lists available online, which supposedly offers them the ability to make adjustments as time goes on. Time will tell. :)

[pretre]

Rules are 07/10

[indytims]

It is totally good. It made me smile as it kind of proved my point that the game as it stands might be good for young new gamers but it just doesn't have any depth and just feels lacking.

 

I would rather play Mordhiem any day over this as it stands even though some of the Warscrolls have an interesting bases for something better. But my Son's Krosmaster Arena has more depth and replayability than AoS. That's not really giving Krosmaster a complement either.

 

It actually does have depth. Does it have the depth of 8th ed? Maybe not. But if you're comparing it to 8th, then it will very likely feel that it is 'lacking' in some way.

 

Mordheim, though a skirmish game itself, really isn't a good comparison to this game. And I am not sure what a 'Krosmaster Arena' is, so I'll have to take your word for it. :)

 

But you can easily see the pedigree of AoS being derived from WHFB. The 4 page rules are -very- 'abbreviated' from the WHFB rulebook. Much of the 'meat' from 8th has been streamlined, but is still there. The ghosts of 'WS vs WS' and 'STR vs Tough' are still there, and Saves are what we all remember (even if the numbers aren't exactly what they were from 8th).

 

The biggest thing missing in my mind is the maneuvering. The 'blocking up', and turns and whatnot. You still move, you can run, missile troops still shoot, you still have charges, etc. You can retreat from battle with no ill-effects (other than not being able to charge/shoot for the rest of that turn), meaning you don't have to be locked into melee for the entire game as you beat down on each other. 'Special rules' are now on your unit card, instead of being in a BRB. That alone drastically cuts down on the size of the main rules.

 

There are definitely areas of over-simplification, for sure. Magic for one. And I deeply detest the plethora of ways players can summon free units. If I read it right, there's a Lord of Change who can summon... another Lord of Change. Huh???

 

But we'll see if GW can shape this up to be a game worth playing regularly, or if it will go into the closet along with Space Hulk and such, to be pulled out once a year. :)

 

-Tim

[Murphy'sLawyer]

But with so many other great games out there why should I spend my time and money on a game that only has "potential"?

 

AoS is more of a skirmish game now and I already own and have played many Skirmish games better designed than this. Krosmaster is a game aimed at the 6-8+ crowd with simple LoS, movement and special abilities rules. It is meant to get kids into gaming. And this is the only game I can think of that compares to AoS. I have played so many different games out there and I can say the more I read the rules and go over scenarios in my head it just fails to impress.

 

I really wanted GW to surprise me but I kept my expectations low because I didn't want to be too disappointed. But the more I run through the rules the more I realize this is worse than my lowest expectations. If I want to play a very simple easy game I already have them. I want WHFB to be the complex game that is larger in scope than all my other games. But now it is the most simple game I own.

 

Zombicide is my Beer and Pretzel game so I don't need AoS to fill that space. So either I stick to 8th or just forget that place that WHFB held, a tactically complex game.

 

 

I am hoping something happens in the next month that turns this around or I will focus my attention on Malifaux and Infinity more. Also Armada, a simple game with a complex degree of tactics based on special model rules and upgrades, but done right.

[indytims]

But with so many other great games out there why should I spend my time and money on a game that only has "potential"?

 

Because you probably already own more than enough figs. You can test the 'potential' for FREE. The rules are free. The army lists are free. You already own the figs.

 

I mean, it's almost hard to believe this is a GW product! I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. LOL!

 

And doesn't -any- game you try only have 'potential', until you give it a shot, and put some time into it? Granted, your first impression of AoS isn't a good one. But first impressions can often be misleading.

 

One thing for sure is, if you go -into- the game hating it, chances are... you're still going to hate it. You'll look for flaws and reasons to dislike it from the get-go.

 

The perfect example of this is Mikhaila on the Dakka forum. He really, really did not like what he saw... until he tried a few games. Sounds like he's done a 180 on it now. Heck, I haven't done a full 180 myself, but I've done a good... 120 or so. LOL. :)

 

And now I understand your comparison to 'Krosmaster'. I am going to go out on a limb and say that most kids 6-8 are not going to really grasp AoS. Yes, with four pages of rules, the vets are going to argue otherwise. But I seriously doubt with all the special rules on warscrolls, that a 6-8 year old is going to really grasp AoS, despite the exaggerations of others. Heck, maybe I am wrong. But there are plenty of other skirmish games with rules simpler than WHFB 8th edition... does that make THEM 'children's games' as well?

 

And yes, you can read the rules and go through scenarios in your head all you like. But there have been plenty of surprised players already who did the same - and felt differently after actually playing a few games. Does that mean those players put AoS up on the same pedestal as 8th edition? Of course not. But it definitely gave them a different outlook on the game itself.

 

Simple does not always equate to boring or lack of strategy, though. 'Complex' does not instantly mean 'better'. There are plenty of games simpler than WHFB or 40K that I enjoy more than either of those.

 

And by no means should you get rid of 8th ed. I am definitely keeping my stuff, for sure! It's a -different- game. AoS isn't 'replacing' it anywhere except on GW's shelves.

 

 

>>> Also Armada, a simple game with a complex degree of tactics based on special model rules and upgrades, but done right.

 

This pretty closely describes AoS.... except that I doubt Armada was the drastically different offspring replacing another game that you held deep emotional ties to. ;)

 

According to the rumors though, there are lots of plans for the coming months, and those plans could definitely make or break this launch! :)

 

-Tim

[JMGraham]

Reliable news from another board:

 

 

 

GW had a guy camped out at the Forge World open day whos entire job was to answer questions and talk to people about Age of Sigmar. His entire job is to go to shows and talk to people about the new game. For the first time I think ever they're taking Age of Sigmar to Gencon, Comic Con, all the major wargames conventions in Europe etc. They're throwing a considerable amount of money at putting this in front of new audiences who have never played fantasy before. He was also brutally honest and didn't dodge any questions and answered everything he could. I'll start with the negative stuff first. 

This is it. There categorically will not be a '9th' edition of fantasy. Age of Sigmar is the only thing fantasy related GW will do for the considerable future. 

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place. 

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again. 

There will never be points values. 

On to the slightly positive stuff then. 

They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming. 

The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios. 

GW really are trying harder than they ever have before to make this work. If you're at one of the shows go and talk to them. They want to talk to you about this, but especially they want your feedback on it. As he said, this is totally uncharted territory for them and they are totally open to rules revisions as they go.

[pretre]

Link to original?

[indytims]

I had suspected they'd still do army books - even if the rules for models are free. I mean, there are people who WILL still buy army books - even if they aren't 'required' to play the game.... as long as the books are worth buying. I'd buy a Skaven book in a heartbeat if it had nice art, fluff, etc. even if I could get the rules for free. Plenty of people 'collect' stuff, whether they ever use it in a game or not. So this part does not surprise me.

 

I also suspect some of this guy's claims are also subject to change. If the game flops hard enough, I could see GW changing their tune. Of course, it took them -decades- to change their tune this time...

 

It's good to know they are definitely going to have -some- kind of 'balancing factor'. come out. It doesn't -have- to be points values, and if they come up with some other method, that's cool, as long as it works.

 

Interesting comments about the 'tournament' stuff... I thought GW thumbed their noses at tournament anything.

[pretre]

That's why I asked for source. Well, one of the reasons. This sounds a bit fishy and wishlisty. If it's true, good for them though. Either way, I'll be tracking it on the tracker if I can find a source other than JMG.