Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Umm... Can I ask why you were unimpressed?

I think cultists are the best unit the entire CSM besides demon princes. I'm afraid they are gonna nerf them (they already have once). 

And I may have some more servitors for ya if that's what your using.

I welcome the servitors. Hit me a PM if you want to trade. 

As for being unimpressed, They have really bad armor saves, they die to battle shock, I can't get them good weapons, and their minmum unit still costs very close to a 5-man marine squad (which is usually far superior). And then, of course, they don't take any less time to paint than a marine. And, finally, they don't fit in CSM transports with characters of whom they really need in order to pass battleshock tests. Beyond that, there's the just the simple fact that if I wanted to field a guardsmen-like unit, I'd play guard. When I run chaos marines, I want to field chaos marines.   

But, it's true, I haven't done very extensive testing. I've seen others use them. They have merit to a certain extent, especially if the opponent lacks anti-infantry options or just ignores them. 

I did run them in last edition's kill team. Loved them there. They work well in escalation leagues too.

But for games at 1500pts+, mine just die turn 1 and become first blood without major effort on behalf of the opponent. 

Though I do think that if I were fielding alpha legion and was able to "deep strike" my cultists or invoke penalties to hit from longer range, the unit would have more value. Or death guard granting them a constant 5+ FNP. 

 

[Guest]

Nah, if I wanted a cheap and numerous infantry option, I'd get more daemons. Presently debating tzeentch allies. They look fun to paint and their start collecting box does look like a solid starting point. I definitely think I could more value from 20 pink horrors than I would from 30 cultists, at least for my iron warriors. 

[SPaceORK]

31 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I welcome the servitors. Hit me a PM if you want to trade. 

As for being unimpressed, They have really bad armor saves, they die to battle shock, I can't get them good weapons, and their minmum unit still costs very close to a 5-man marine squad (which is usually far superior). And then, of course, they don't take any less time to paint than a marine. And, finally, they don't fit in CSM transports with characters of whom they really need in order to pass battleshock tests. Beyond that, there's the just the simple fact that if I wanted to field a guardsmen-like unit, I'd play guard. When I run chaos marines, I want to field chaos marines.   

But, it's true, I haven't done very extensive testing. I've seen others use them. They have merit to a certain extent, especially if the opponent lacks anti-infantry options or just ignores them. 

I did run them in last edition's kill team. Loved them there. They work well in escalation leagues too.

But for games at 1500pts+, mine just die turn 1 and become first blood without major effort on behalf of the opponent. 

Though I do think that if I were fielding alpha legion and was able to "deep strike" my cultists or invoke penalties to hit from longer range, the unit would have more value. Or death guard granting them a constant 5+ FNP. 

 

Ok... Well for starters, I'm not trying to trade you some servitors that have been sitting in my bitz box for a decade. They will be coming along in the package I send out later.

Second, you have been really using cultists wrong or at least evaluating them wrong. Yes, they have bad saves, fail moral often, etc. But why are they good then? Well they come in 40 man blobs for 120 points. That in itself makes them extremely useful.  120 points for a screen to protect your entire army turn one? Yes please! Add in the nerfed Tide of Traitors strat and thats basically 80 cultists for 120 points and  2cp! OkOk, but they don't do anything on offense. Well they have a 4+ bs/ws with autoguns so already on guardsmen level (which is one of the best units in the game?). Sure they are only going to kill other infantry but thats ok, them other dudes need to die. Add in mark of slaanesh and suddenly your 40 man unit with auto guns is pumping out 120 lasgun shots. Thats 20 wounds on anything with t4-5, which is alot of things. Want them to deepstrike? Alpha legion. What them to be choppy in close combat? World Eaters and close combat weapons. But they only wear t-shirts for armor! Yea thats ok though. If you want tanky cultists, make them Alpha Legion and Mark of Slaanesh for -1 to hit and FNP. But they fail moral tests! So? They are first and foremost screens for your important  stuff. They just have the ability to be tanky, shooty or choppy depending on your needs, all without character support. But as you said the IW trait is awesome for keeping them around and only one needs to survive for tide of traitors to work. There is also the book stratagem and Abbadon for fearless.  Add in character support (which is no big deal because your characters are doing other things than just buffing cultists) and suddenly you have a 40 man unit of cultist with 3+ ws/bs, shooting or hitting twice a turn, rerolling 1's to hit with +1 to wound. The idea is to make your cultists scary with minimal effort so your stuff that actually needs to do things, dont die.

There are things you shouldn't do with them though. Never take them in a squad of less than 30 unless you plan on hiding them all game behind some los blocking terrain. The bigger the blob, the more your individual buffs are multiplied across a unit and the greater chance of one of them surviving to Tide of Traitors the squad back.

They should never be in a transport. They either move + advance to provide a screen. Or they are deepstruck via the AL strat.

Also from a fluff perspective, CSM are rare. Cultists make up the bulk of a force for chaos. So a few CSM running around with a bunch of cultists to fall on chainswords for them is a very chaosy thing to do.

You did mention other demon allies, specifically tzeentch pinks. Those are great, but you want the full squad of 30. It allows you to have the 20+ model bonus longer, which in this case changes their weapons to assault 3. The "take 30 rule" actually applies to all demon troops cause they all have bonuses for having 20+ models, which takes them from "meh" to great.

 

Tl;DR: Cultists die, its their job, take 40. Pinks are good, take 30.

[SPaceORK]

So I tried to make a list that  makes use of the IW tactics, uses models you already own, can easily convert or already plan to acquire while still being able to deal with eldar tricks, kill a knight or a unit of 30 infantry in a turn. Between the CSM, cultists, oblits, and dreadnought  you should have to worry about anything lurking in cover. The princes hide behind the pinks and cultists for a bit, until they are assured a charge, then jam them into your enemies lines. Which hopefully the oblits, scorpious, missile launchers, dread, smites and pinks have softened up.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [74 PL, 1311pts] ++

 

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon [10pts]

. Slaanesh: Diabolic Strength

 

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon [10pts]

. Slaanesh: Warptime

 

So Fly, a bunch of attacks, ws 2+ and rerolling 1's, strength 8-9. These guys should have no problem with dealing with those pesky Eldar flyers, or really anything else you want to throw them at. Plus they are wizards so they should help with denying those ridiculously useful Eldar powers, making killing them even easier.  They are especially "durable" considering the 30 cultists and 30 pinks that will be screening for them on the first couple turns. Also you get some splash utility from most things in the list being slaanesh, so the princes will grant rerolls of 1.

 

Warpsmith [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer [9pts], Meltagun [17pts], No Chaos Mark, Power axe [5pts]

 

This gentleman is here cause you like him and he can be the medic for fragile vehicles. So he should spend most of his time repairing and occasionally  defending the back lines. Plus a random Melta can be very useful.

 

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 120pts]: 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [116pts], Mark of Slaanesh

. Cultist Champion [4pts]: Autogun

 

Cultists! Here to die, so your good stuff gets to keep on killing. Move + advance should be the name of the game for the first couple turns. Make them fearless via the stratagem if you feel moral would kill off the unit, so you can tide of traitors them back the next turn. Basically they are here to provide 30-60 extra wounds to your demon princes. And with your demon princes following close behind, they should be able to help put a dent in some screens. So with tide of traitors, only one cultist need survive. So ideally, the enemy would kill 29 cultists, make them fearless, tide them back in the opponents deployment zone, and continue "screening" (remember they need to be closer to the enemy if you wish for them to continue dying for the demon princes). Whatever you kill with them or tie up in cc is a bonus!

 

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Aspiring Champion [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [39pts]

. Marine w/ heavy weapon [38pts]: Missile launcher [25pts]

 

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Aspiring Champion [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [39pts]

. Marine w/ heavy weapon [38pts]: Missile launcher [25pts]

 

Now these guys are here to hide in ruins and take pop shots at anything that may come into the range of their guns.  With a missile launcher in each squad, you can also reach out and touch some troops or a tank if need be. Also the flakk strat will be helpful against flyers or things with fly (which is a ton of things). Also they are troops so they are going to hold those backfield objectives for you. 

 

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 163pts]

. Left Arm [30pts]: Butcher cannon [30pts]

. Right Arm [30pts]: Butcher cannon [30pts]

 

Oh my, I didn't  know this guy was a thing. I thought it was only the leviathan that got dual butcher cannons. Butcher cannons are awesome, especially on a bs 2+ model. 36", 8 shots at 8/-1/2 is going to put a hurt on everything from Primaris marines to tanks. Now it is far more fragile than the leviathan but its also like half the cost. And if he doesn't die outright you have your warp smith hanging around to bring him up a damage tier.

 

Hellforged Scorpius [12 PL, 217pts]: Combi-bolter [2pts], Scorpius multi-launcher [40pts]

 

Your other back field murder vehicle, along with the dreadnought. This thing can basically hurt anything. 48", no los needed, bs 3+, 6d3 6/-2/2 shots if it didn't move. Such a good profile for dealing with almost any threat.

 

 

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator [195pts]

 

Good ol' obliterators. Deepstrike these guys in turn 2 next to one of your demon princes, pop the slaanesh double tap strat, and watch as you melt almost anything with 24, bs 3+, rerolling 1's, a minimum of s7/-1/1 shots. On average it should be s8/-2/2 which is awesome. Now don't expect to shoot more than 2-3 times with these guys cause they will be murdered as quickly as possible.

 

++ Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons) [25 PL, 468pts] ++

 

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

 

Changecaster [4 PL, 78pts]: Flickering Flames

 

This guy is here solely to give the pinks +1 strength (its command aura) and +1 to wound ( via flickering frames power) to their shooting attacks. Also another source of denial if need be.

 

Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon [10pts], Wings [1 PL, 24pts]

. Tzeentch: Infernal Gateway

 

Same strategy here as the other two princes, except he goes with the pinks. Hide him behind the pinks for two turns until you can make a charge, then go forth and murder. Just as planned.  

 

Horrors [12 PL, 210pts]: 30x Pink Horror [210pts]

 

How I like these guys. 4++ on a screening unit is already beautiful. Combine that with 90 bolter shots at bs3+, rerolling 1's and +1 to wound. They will put damage on anything you point them at.

 

++ Total: [99 PL, 1779pts] ++

 

Now this list only has 8 cp and between the double tap strat, tide of traitors and fearless strat your going to burn though 6 in the first turn. So your going to have to be careful with the final two. 

[Guest]

So if cultists are good in the 40-man for 160pts, what about Chaos Marines in squads of 20 for 260pts? Yeah, it's more wounds with cultists, but the chaos marines are certainly more durable and definitely have better stock weapons (and ability to use those weapons).

And I do think that, although the stratagem grants free points, the base cultists are overpriced. Guard get a much better profile and options for the same point cost, I think. Dunno, kinda feels like the stratagem is a tax.

Anyway, I'm not expecting to get enough cultists anytime soon. Lots of painting to do as is without adding cheap squads of 40 to the mix...

[Guest]

Another thought. Chaos Daemons. The Tzeentch Flickering Flames psychic power adds +1 to wound rolls for a Tzeentch Daemon unit. The Nurgle Shriveling Pox psychic power subtracts 1 from the target's toughness. With both together, shouldn't be too hard to have some rather impressive shooting with CSM daemon units, like Obliterators or one of the of the Daemon Engines.

I keep running into this problem, in this edition, where I tend to evaluate units in a stand-alone role. This edition is all about Synergy, or rather, about units that bolster other units. I think, if I get the Synergy right, I should be able to get CSM to work in a competitive capacity.

[SPaceORK]

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Another thought. Chaos Daemons. The Tzeentch Flickering Flames psychic power adds +1 to wound rolls for a Tzeentch Daemon unit. The Nurgle Shriveling Pox psychic power subtracts 1 from the target's toughness. With both together, shouldn't be too hard to have some rather impressive shooting with CSM daemon units, like Obliterators or one of the of the Daemon Engines.

I keep running into this problem, in this edition, where I tend to evaluate units in a stand-alone role. This edition is all about Synergy, or rather, about units that bolster other units. I think, if I get the Synergy right, I should be able to get CSM to work in a competitive capacity.

I...I put all of that in the above list. Because it is good. 

However, ignore the upgrade part for cultists. The idea is they are 4 points per wound. Which is great. It's the reason guard is good too. 3 points for a model (looking at you conscripts) with a guardsmen profile is to good. 

Why 40 cultists for 160 over 20 marines for 260? Well all the buffs that apply to cultist also apply to marines so it's a draw there. Marines also can have better weapons, but at the cost of making the unit ridiculously priced, so thats not the way you wanna go. Marines, while more durable with a 3+ save, cost waaay more per wound than cultists, so you don't wanna just use the as a screen. 

Basically it come down to this. You want your army to be able to handle most threats, but you don't want your units in the army to be able to handle most threats. Marines are "good" as a unit that can do something to most units and be durable against most things. But they are not great at anything. Want a screening unit? Cultists, plaguebearers, brims, nurglings. Want something anti tank? Havocs, oblits, dreads. Want something anti infantry? Pinks, beszerkers. And all of those units are great at something while being ok at something else, adding to the redundancy of a list. What you don't want is something that is mediocre at all things. Which marines are...

Now if CSM cost like 9-11 points? That would be a different story... Then their price per wound would be low enough that their 3+ would matter, their upgrades would be ok to add. Currently, for all forms of marines, your paying for a bunch of rules and wargear that isn't really relevant.

[WestRider]

I would also note that the 40 Cultists can block off way more of the board than 20 CSM can, especially against Deep Strikers and other Units that need to stay 9" away when they Deploy. That means more Objectives that are difficult for the Opponent to get to, more room for your Firepower Units to operate in without worrying about getting locked in combat, more room for your Assault Units to move up without worrying about getting preemptively Charged, etc.

[SPaceORK]

1 minute ago, WestRider said:

I would also note that the 40 Cultists can block off way more of the board than 20 CSM can, especially against Deep Strikers and other Units that need to stay 9" away when they Deploy. That means more Objectives that are difficult for the Opponent to get to, more room for your Firepower Units to operate in without worrying about getting locked in combat, more room for your Assault Units to move up without worrying about getting preemptively Charged, etc.

If set up in a line, 2 inchs apart, it's a box 18"x 120" of no deepstrike.

[WestRider]

19"x136", actually. Don't forget the base sizes. Or, with a rectangle formation and one more Model in the middle, it's possible to block off 2/3 of a standard board to deep strike.

[Guest]

Running late. Think I have enough models to run this tonight at GG:

 

Iron Warriors Brigade (all mark of tzeentch) 2k

HQ Prince with Wings (bolter, Fleshmetal, axe)

HQ Chaos Lord in TDA (bolter, sword, Murdersword)

HQ & Warlord Warpsmith (combi-melta, Cold and Bitter)

Elites Rubriks (5)

Elites Rubriks (5)

Elites Mutilators (3)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Troops Chaos Marines (5, Autocannon, Fist)

Fast Attack Chaos Spawn (2)

Fast Attack Chaos Spawn (2)

Fast Attack Raptors (2 Melta guns, 2 Plasma pistols)

Heavy Support Vindicator

Heavy Support Vindicator

Heavy Support Vindicator

Dedicated Transport Rhino (2 Combi-bolters)

 

Total 1995pts, 15 CP (1 CP dedicated to extra relic)

[Guest]

Today is a bust. Left almost an hour late. Got about a third of the way there, had to use the restroom. Another time, I guess.

[Guest]

Tyranid Warrior(rending claws + scything talons)/Chaos Spawn.

[SPaceORK]

14 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Tyranid Warrior(rending claws + scything talons)/Chaos Spawn.

Your painting?

[Guest]

Of course.

This one is a bit lazier than pervious tyranid models. In the past, I've been just using red and white and mixing, while this one cheats starting with bought paints. I still like it, though. A good rank and file model. Don't like the shoulder pad, though. I'm thinking those GW Iron Warriors shoulder pads just don't turn out. I should just do my own by hand. 

[PourSpelur]

Really dig that bug Pax! The super highlighted, cell style pops like nobody's business. Aces.

[Guest]

On 9/20/2018 at 12:05 PM, PourSpelur said:

Really dig that bug Pax! The super highlighted, cell style pops like nobody's business. Aces.

Thinking about it more, I think the lighting in my apartment isn't very good. I am trying for that "pop" in the color, but I often feel that they are brighter when I show them to people (or take them outside) than they were when I was painting them.

[Guest]

Couple of chaos things.

 

1) Debating the Iron Warriors. I'm just not painting them. I get them silver base coated and then stop. I'm painting the tyranids just fine, so it's not inability to paint in general. I think I'm bored/dislike the paint scheme. Should I go back to my Smiling Skulls (Red bodies, Black and white helms, red white and blue shoulder pads)? Or something else..? And on that note, should I keep the chapter tactics?

 

2) Need a 6-man unit (or 3 terms/JP) that is a viable melee unit. Multiple characters is fine, though huge point cost may detract from viability. Suggestions?

I'm working on a very nice home made Hellforged LR achilles. In this edition, LR achilles has a 4++. I'll give it mark of Tzeentch, then cast that tzeentch specific psychic power to make it have a 3++. As a transport, it only holds 6 guys, so I need a unit that fits. It's already a 450-ish point model.

 

[Guest]

Picked up the Deathguard codex. Surprisingly, haven't owned this one yet. Tempted to switch to them. Paint scheme would look better than my Iron Warriors are turning out. Maybe I'll do a mix. Need to figure out if Deathguard have full FW vehicle access...

[Ish]

Last I checked, Death Guard had access to almost everything Chaos that FW offers, excepting a few of the Legion or God specific things.

 

HQ: Necrosius, Mamon, Corbax;

Elite: Decimator, Hellforged Contemptor, Hellforged Predator, Hellforged Sicaran;

Troops: Assault Drill

Fast: Blight Drone, Dreadclaw, Charybdis

Heavy: Vindicator Laser Destroyer, Deredeo Dreadnought, Leviathan Dreadnought, Scorpius, Various Land Raiders

Flyers: Hell Blade, Hell Talon, Fire Raptor, Xiphon, Storm Eagle

 

Plus a couple Lords of War and Super-Heavy tanks forget the names of.

 

Necrosius is a must buy if you like the idea of fielding Pox Walkers en masse. FW is also the only source of Death Guard Flyers, since Citadel doesn’t give them any (and they have lousy Anti-Aircraft options otherwise).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

Last I checked, Death Guard had access to almost everything Chaos that FW offers, excepting a few of the Legion or God specific things.

 

HQ: Necrosius, Mamon, Corbax;

Elite: Decimator, Hellforged Contemptor, Hellforged Predator, Hellforged Sicaran;

Troops: Assault Drill

Fast: Blight Drone, Dreadclaw, Charybdis

Heavy: Vindicator Laser Destroyer, Deredeo Dreadnought, Leviathan Dreadnought, Scorpius, Various Land Raiders

Flyers: Hell Blade, Hell Talon, Fire Raptor, Xiphon, Storm Eagle

 

Plus a couple Lords of War and Super-Heavy tanks forget the names of.

 

Necrosius is a must buy if you like the idea of fielding Pox Walkers en masse.

Thanks.

I was thinking of something else. Yeah, FW FAQ says anything with <Legion> and NURGLE can be DEATH GUARD except the Hellforged Rapier battery, and the two Dark Mechanicus Character options (Hellwrights).

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

FW is also the only source of Death Guard Flyers, since Citadel doesn’t give them any (and they have lousy Anti-Aircraft options otherwise).

Just wondering, what do you mean by the lack of AA options for DG?

Flyer wise, the Chaos Marines have just as many flying vehicles as the DG do in their codex (The helldrake isn't a proper flyer in this edition, no hard to hit, so the bloat drones are as much flyers as the helldrake is).

[Ish]

No units from Citadel Miniatures in the Codex have the “+1 to hit models with the FLY keyword” that you see one proper ack-ack units, like the ubiquitous Hydra Flak Tank. Death Guard have really good long range shooting (18” Rapid Fire Boltguns are hilariously evil) but it’s mostly geared towards anti-infantry, this makes the really heavily armoured flying transports (e.g. Storm Raven) hard to deal with.

“Flyer Spam” isn’t as bad as it used to be, but an enemy flyer left unchallenged can really play havoc with your Pox Walker tide and/or your backfield artillery slug-tanks.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Ish said:

No units from Citadel Miniatures in the Codex have the “+1 to hit models with the FLY keyword” that you see one proper ack-ack units, like the ubiquitous Hydra Flak Tank. Death Guard have really good long range shooting (18” Rapid Fire Boltguns are hilariously evil) but it’s mostly geared towards anti-infantry, this makes the really heavily armoured flying transports (e.g. Storm Raven) hard to deal with.

“Flyer Spam” isn’t as bad as it used to be, but an enemy flyer left unchallenged can really play havoc with your Pox Walker tide and/or your backfield artillery slug-tanks.

You know you can field hydras in a chaos army, right? Those FW rules for renegade AM armies do allow the Hydra (amongst others) as an option. There's also the weapon options for a few of the fortifications, are AA weapons. Plus, DG have a good number of weapons that simply do not require hit rolls.

That said, marines with BS 2+ and BS 3+ in my experience, far exceeds the value of AA weapons borrowed from an AM army or fortifications.

There's also the Blight Haulers which get a far superior flat +1 to hit when targeting anything, but only while the unit has 3 models. Not amazing, but definitely superior than +1 to hit only against targets with fly. Their BS is iffy to begin with, but that's not any different than guard would have.

It is true that DG have a general lack of infantry mounted long range weapons. Though they do double tap plasma too, at the 18" mark.

Plus flyers aren't immune to Auras and area of effect abilties (like vehicle explosions), of which DG has quite a few capable of damaging enemy flyers and even a stratagem than auto-explodes vehicles.

[Ish]

57 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

You know you can field hydras in a chaos army, right

Yes, but I’m specifically referring to units native to Codex: Death Guard. Once you start bringing in allies and other options, things change.