End Times Part Dos

[JMGraham]

Dirty, nasty Beastmen don't get to grow up and be Daemon Princes.

[rudra34]

Reign of chaos table applies to chaos armies (does not specify legions of chaos).   

 

A roll of 2 now doubles the wounds that daemonic units take from instability, rather than making all units on the board test.  

 

A roll of 7 now causes a result or 5, 6, 8, or 9, based on the mark of the army's general.

[rudra34]

Dirty, nasty Beastmen don't get to grow up and be Daemon Princes.

This wont bother me when I'm running around the field with a 3+ ward save doombull.

[rudra34]

There are rules for summoning daemons.  All chaos wizards have access to a spell to summon daemonic units.  Casting values change for a 100 point summon, 150, and 200.  It may just be used in "Chaos Ascendant" game scenarios, but could be a rule for all games that have a legions of chaos army.

 

Confirmed for scenario-only.  

[rudra34]

In legion of chaos armies, daemonic instability is replaced with unbreakable/unstable.

[Don't Panic]

finally beastmen might be relevent... and karl franz is essentially a god now lol. im starting to get excited about this, finally...

[McNathanson]

I dunno, I like the models I'm seeing, but I'm hoping everyone doesn't feel compelled to jump on the uber-hero bandwagon, out of some sort of pre-emptive escalation thing!  

 

I'd don't mind playing around with them on game night, but really these guys don't belong in a smaller (~2500) tourney list where they'll comprise 50% of the army's points, do they?  

 

Honestly I'm not too hung up on it either way, but do remember folks: this is our meta to define, we get to choose if we go nuts with the new End Times named characters.

[rudra34]

I'm not that excited to use any of the special characters.  I don't think they need to be excluded from the meta, but I find most of them boring.  Being able to pick out items and other things for generic characters has a lot more appeal to me than the locked-in-place profile for most specials.

[McNathanson]

Agreed, rudra34, I'm only saying that just because they publish 1000 point uber SCs, doesn't mean we have to start building around them for regular play!

[thatdave]

A couple of thoughts:

 

I think I like the Daemonic Instability rules better than the Unstable/Unbreakable combo.

 

The theory I've seen put forth is that by making Lords/Heroes a bigger part of the army GW will entice more new players with a lower model count and cheaper entry price point. If that holds true I think that a shift may be forced upon us. Outside our own game rooms and the OFCC, of course.

 

If we plan to play outside our bubbles then we need to be prepared for the next incarnation of the game. We don't know what the new edition will bring, but some of the writing is starting to show up on the walls....

[McNathanson]

I hear you Dave, but the same argument could have been made that the "writing was on the wall" for a gunline Seaguard army from the Storm of Chaos books, and the meta we had at the time simply rejected that build (not just our bubble, but up to and including the GW GT where such a list was in attendance and got comp'd out of contention).  

I guess I just think it has been, and always will be, our job to keep it fun, as a gaming community trying to make a fun game out of WFB's awesome models and wacky (but steadily improving IMO!) rules :)

[ratrek]

You get your mitts off my bubble Dave or I'll be forced into using THREE Mrs. Fluffies our next game.

 

I bet they call the next Edition 5th.

 

Wait, 5.1.

 

Wait.

 

iHammer 5.1 LARGE CAT OF DOOM

[MexicanNinja]

I dunno, I like the models I'm seeing, but I'm hoping everyone doesn't feel compelled to jump on the uber-hero bandwagon, out of some sort of pre-emptive escalation thing!  

 

I'd don't mind playing around with them on game night, but really these guys don't belong in a smaller (~2500) tourney list where they'll comprise 50% of the army's points, do they?  

 

Honestly I'm not too hung up on it either way, but do remember folks: this is our meta to define, we get to choose if we go nuts with the new End Times named characters.

Why not?  I'm all for my opponent dumping that many points into one model.  I wouldn't waste my time investing half my points into a single model though.  All it takes is one good phase, not turn, for your enemy and you just lost half your army in one model.  Karl Franz is still subject to death sniping, arcane unforging, etc.

 

These models can get beat down by models with a total cost of 25% or less from what they cost.  He could die to 2 cannon shots, 1 volley from a hellblaster, a charge from a steamtank, helebrone could wreck his face in a single round, etc.  There are too many ways to deal with these things.  A double nurgle DP list beats the nagash and/or karl franz list, nine times out of ten.

 

Again, I think people are getting too caught up around these special characters.  They can still be dealt with.

 

I'm going to go back to my Dwarf examples for a second:

 

If I see an incline of people wanting to take these "uber" characters then I will start responding with maxing out war machines (cannons, flame cannons, organ guns, grudge throwers) and give them one turn to do something with their "big" toy.  Is that a dick move, it sure is; however, if people want to start bringing these lists in 2.5k games and lower then I will discourage it with a "true" dwarf gunline.  Why?  Because just like they "can" bring the 1k+ point model, I "can" bring 1k worth of war machines to counter that douche waffle.

 

Or, I'll go back to my previous dark elf example of the "flying circus".  I bet I can get more out of 9 masters, 2 dreadlords, 2 level 3 SS (shadow and death) all riding dark pegasus's than my opponent could out of karl franz during the course of 6 turns.  I then just take throw away units (dark riders and bolt throwers).

 

Yes, Ntk, I know those are douche moves; however, sometimes those are needed to bring gamers back in line.

 

I will counter all of the above though with this.  If you are going to a tournament and you are NOT expecting to see what is considered "cheese" lists, you shouldn't be going to tournaments in the first place.  IMO, tournaments are the place for these tough as nails lists.  I don't care how much the army looks like  WAAC army, it's a tournament.  You aren't going to see the Cavaliers bench Lebron James against OCK because durant is hurt.  People have to know how to differentiate the types of games from one another.  Now, if you set up a game with your opponent before hand and ask them if it's cool if you take these bad mama jama's and they say go for it, then by all means have fun at it and see what happens.

 

Again, I just think that people are getting to wrapped up in thinking that all they are going to see now are these crazy characters and insane character spams.  There are still waaaaaayyyyy too many counters to them.

[ratrek]

And that is how PNW events have changed Nathan.

 

Remember when I use to be the worse for stupid lists (and most of them weren't that stupid. Mrs Fluffy and her pals on the other hand...) and now the norm is to expect them.

 

Not picking on you MN. It's just for a very long time in this scene, that was not the prevailing attitude towards tournaments around here.

[thatdave]

That is kind of the point I was making as well.  If we get an influx of new players drawn by what appears to be GW's current MO then we need to be prepared for that.  At least when we go to 'regular' tournaments.

[MexicanNinja]

...Not picking on you MN. It's just for a very long time in this scene, that was not the prevailing attitude towards tournaments around here.

I was making a general statement and not a specific statement towards the tournaments in the PNW.  It's ultimately up to the players to determine the "level" of the game.

 

Every group, club, player, demographic location, etc have their own type of play style.  The main thing I was trying to point out that tournaments are much different than casual pick up games or games played at escalation nights.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Funny MN, I made the same suggestion of bringing the hard toys to counter a monstrous lord and it recieved a lukewarm response here on the forums. So it comes down to make some sort of decision as a community as to where we go. Do we escalate the power level of our lists or do we continue with are current power level.

 

Heck, do we introduce a comp system for game night? I think it will be figured out as time goes on and by the club players belong to.

 

I know even though Raindog and friends don't comment on these subjects much they are most definitely weigh in on how to run events and leagues. I just don't think they want these topics to get out of control by discussing their ideas on how they want to run these events because everyone is going to have a different opinion on this.

 

I just going to wait for now.

[MexicanNinja]

Funny MN, I made the same suggestion of bringing the hard toys to counter a monstrous lord and it recieved a lukewarm response here on the forums. So it comes down to make some sort of decision as a community as to where we go. Do we escalate the power level of our lists or do we continue with are current power level.

 

Heck, do we introduce a comp system for game night? I think it will be figured out as time goes on and by the club players belong to.

 

I know even though Raindog and friends don't comment on these subjects much they are most definitely weigh in on how to run events and leagues. I just don't think they want these topics to get out of control by discussing their ideas on how they want to run these events because everyone is going to have a different opinion on this.

 

I just going to wait for now.

1) No decision is needed.  You either play at a low power level or a higher one.  I know personally, if someone said I was only allowed to play at a certain level I would leave that group of gamer because they are modifying the game and now it will be exploited at different levels.  You play the game however you want.  If people don't like what you're bringing....well, good luck getting games and those players are now forced to change their lists.  IMO, there is no decision needed.  There are rules in place to prevent this during escalation with the rule stating no special characters allowed.

 

2) In all honesty, a comp system doesn't solve or fix anything.  You give any gamer a comp system and it will be broken during the first game night.

 

3) Everyone will run their leagues and/or events differently.  That's the awesome thing about being a gamer.  If you don't like what is or isn't being allowed, you don't have to participate.

 

Again, I continue to think that a lot of this End Times stuff is out of control.  I said this for the first End Times and I'll say it again here:

 

Are you playing power gamers/games now?  Are you expecting to play them in the next few weeks?  if you only play escalation games, you don't need to worry about any of these characters and I highly doubt you'll see maxed out character points with minimum points spent in core.

[AgentP]

Less panic, more beer

[MexicanNinja]

Less panic, more beer

More beer is always the best option!

[ratrek]

Less beer, more Mead!

[Don't Panic]

LESS beer?!?! oh nononono.  its more beer, more mead, more whiskey... repeat?!  

[Murphy'sLawyer]

MN I hear you but also from experience with Warmachine and 40K groups I saw them turn into highly competitive scenes where if you didn't bring the Net List of the month you got either Assassinated turn 2 in Warmachine or table turn 3 or 4 in 40k.

 

I know you hate comparing other games to Fantasy but 9th is coming and with that a new way to look at list building. We can see now that lords on mounts are going to have combined profiles and GW is going to push a more Herohammer style of play than 8th was. So I am just wondering if the community is going to maintain our play for the game attitude? Or will it turn into a scene more like the other games where the Named Characters are Gods and the game highly focused on them?

 

I know I am still new to Fantasy compared to many here but I played other game systems for awhile and watched them go through changes as the community adapted to new models or rules.

 

This is also more of me making conversation and not me freaking out and swearing I am going to rage quit. I am just saying changes are coming and asking what people think is going to happen. Because if you think nothing is going to change than you are going to be in for a surprise.

[McNathanson]

THE SKY IS FALLING.  

 

No I don't hear anybody panicking, truly.  

We seem to agree that we have a couple options, just like with prior rules changes: fight fire with fire, or self-moderate and encourage others to do so.

I agree with MurphysLawyer that the fight fire with fire approach usually gets ugly and isn't all that fun.

 

And MN, I know you and I could both bring bad-ass armies, and wipe up on uber characters.  The point is that (just as it's always been) a good player with a super powerful model (if indeed these turn out to be) can use it to win most games without even needing most of the rest of the army, and that's not fun for either player, IMO.  

Acknowledging that it's a matter of preference, but reminding folks that it's up to us how we adapt and change with new GW rules rolling out!  My preference is that we all keep in mind that Everything Is Better When You Think Of Your Opponent Having Fun As Well As Yourself.  You know, that old saying ;)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

THE SKY IS FALLING.  

 

No I don't hear anybody panicking, truly.  

We seem to agree that we have a couple options, just like with prior rules changes: fight fire with fire, or self-moderate and encourage others to do so.

I agree with MurphysLawyer that the fight fire with fire approach usually gets ugly and isn't all that fun.

 

And MN, I know you and I could both bring bad-ass armies, and wipe up on uber characters.  The point is that (just as it's always been) a good player with a super powerful model (if indeed these turn out to be) can use it to win most games without even needing most of the rest of the army, and that's not fun for either player, IMO.  

Acknowledging that it's a matter of preference, but reminding folks that it's up to us how we adapt and change with new GW rules rolling out!  My preference is that we all keep in mind that Everything Is Better When You Think Of Your Opponent Having Fun As Well As Yourself.  You know, that old saying ;)

I agree with this totally.