Codex Eldar confirmed

[cadaver2k]

What is the profile of the gun the eldar come with if they don't buy the ten point upgrade gun?

[pretre]

Anyway, back to the the biker debate, I suppose.

 

 

Why are they shooting at eachother? Like seriously.

 

RW knights with TL plasma shots should not be firing at that unit because it isn't worth shooting at.

 

It's like comparing a demolisher cannon to a battle cannon against eldar bikers and saying the the battle just as good, but cheaper. Certainly true, but it's a terrible assessment of the two weapons.

Because someone said this, so I responded to it:

 

Also, how is the model an all around weaker model, if it is significantly more likely to kill the RW unit (or most other treats that would even target them) before the enemy has a chance to respond?

 

[pretre]

What is the profile of the gun the eldar come with if they don't buy the ten point upgrade gun?

For 17 points, they just come with a TL Shuri Catapults.

 

Which are... Please hold 12" S4 AP5, Assault 2 Bladestorm

[fluger]

Critically, bladestorm works like rending on units with a toughness save, meaning if they roll a 6 to wound, it auto wound regardless of T and it becomes AP2.  

[cadaver2k]

So is there a way to make the eldar bike units have hit n run? Harlequins perhaps?

[pretre]

So is there a way to make the eldar bike units have hit n run? Harlequins perhaps?

I imagine one or more of the phoenix lords would allow it.

[pretre]

I think the idea is that you don't really need it though. If you get in H2H, you're dead anyways.

[cadaver2k]

true but if there is a way I can kiss my bike army goodbye. Don't they have hammer of wrath?

[Guest]

Because someone said this, so I responded to it:

But why pick such a broken example?

 

If doing 3 vs 4, which is fair in points, why not pick a target and compare their shooting against that target?

 

RW bikers have a very different roll than those Eldar scatter bikers.

 

Scatter bikers have that shoot, hop, shoot, approach at medium to long range. They are not viable in assault and very much rely on ample open space to maintain their shoot, hop, shoot way of life.

 

RW knights have better weapons with shorter range, so they are very likely going to outflank into the opponent's backfield and attack vehicles/MCs that the rest of the army can't get behind. Those RW knights also aren't great in melee, but they are still solid enough to survive and even win against units not specifically designed for assault, even at the 3-man level. I will note that the bikes have both a lower profile and smaller bases, so it is easy to hide them, especially with skilled rider.

 

On a side note, you keep ranting about being objective secured as positive thing. While I agree it is useful very useful for some units, it also makes even the 3-man unit a much higher priority target. There is some advantage is being a highly offensive, but weakly defensive unit, that isn't objective secured...

[pretre]

Even against vehicles, the Eldar are going to do better.

 

Let's say AV 11 (since we're outflanking the RW and just moving the Eldar)

 

16 Shots. 32/3 Hits. 3,5 Results. 

vs

6 Shots. 48/9 Hits. 3.5 Results. +1 on table. 

 

AV12

Eldar: 32/3 Hits. 32/18 Results

RW: 1.5 Results. +1 on table. 

 

At least RW are better against AV13. :) 2/3 Results vs 0 for Eldar.

[Guest]

Even against vehicles, the Eldar are going to do better.

 

Let's say AV 11 (since we're outflanking the RW and just moving the Eldar)

 

16 Shots. 12 Hits. 4 Results. 2 Glance/2 Pen

vs

6 Shots. 18/4 Hits. 3 Results. +1 on table. 

 

AV12

Eldar: 2 Results. 2 Glance

RW: 1.5 Results. +1 on table. 

 

At least RW are better against AV13. :) 2/3 Results vs 0 for Eldar.

 

Now how about a MC target. A GK Dreadknight in example. Stock dreadknight is pretty close in points (130pts), after all.

 

T6, 2+/5+ 4 wounds. Neither unit will kill it, but difference really starts to show when you have your ap5 weapon with lower strength being pitted against something with good armor and weak other saves. Centurions could also present a good example of the RW knights shining.

 

Oh, and don't forget that RW knights can assault and glance AV14 via those S5 rending melee weapons. While those eldar bikes have, I think S3 melee attacks (and S3 hammers, yay!)

[Lord Hanaur]

I just feel its going to be much ado about nothing. Unless youre armor is 2+ or have multiple wounds, the wraiths wont be any scarier than before. As before, charge the non essential unit into them if killing them is even your goal and then charge them with what matters. I know that whenever this stuff drops panic seems to ensue. I say calm down. Just play and see what happens. They might spank you a time or two while you learn but if you take on the mindset of a dispassionate tinker, then youll figure it out. Im confident of that.

[pretre]

Now how about a MC target. A GK Dreadknight in example.

 

T6, 2+/5+ 4 wounds. Neither unit will kill it, but difference really starts to shot when you have your ap5 weapon with lower strength being pitted against something with 2+ armor and weak other saves. Centurions could also present a good example.

 

Oh, and don't forget that RW knights can assault and glance AV14 via those S5 rending melee weapons.

Not the turn they outflanked, they can't.

 

Hmm. I may have been doing to hit rolls incorrectly. Eldar are BS4 so 2/3 hit.

 

Okay, 

16 Shots, 32/3 Hits. 32/18 Wounds. 32/108 After Saves

6 Shots. 48/9 Hits. 96/27 Wounds. 2 After Saves.

 

So yes, RW are better against high T, Low Save models. Eldar are better against everything else except AV13.

[pretre]

And keep in mind that the Eldar are 12 points cheaper for this output.

[Guest]

And keep in mind that the Eldar are 12 points cheaper for this output.

It's 13pts, and that's only the command squad. If RW knights, they are actually 16pts cheaper. Dunno why, but RW command squads are cheaper for no clear reason in the codex. Model entry wise, the knights are functionally the same thing.

[Guest]

Oh, you mean for the squad. Yeah.

[pretre]

It's 13pts, and that's only the command squad. If RW knights, they are actually 16pts cheaper. Dunno why, but RW command squads are cheaper for no clear reason in the codex. Model entry wise, the knights are functionally the same thing.

I meant my squad is, but sure.

[Guest]

So yes, RW are better against high T, Low Save models. Eldar are better against everything else except AV13.

Unless they get assaulted....

[pretre]

Unless they get assaulted....

Sure. Which could happen if your move 12, turboboosting, 36" range, JSJ models run out of board space.

[generalripphook]

Why is it that Eldar always have a few units/weapons which are dubbed really broken, but space marines don't run really run into the same opposition, even if they have an equally viable unit?

 

I was responding to your terminology of a few broken units and weapons and the use of an equally viable unit. Suggesting that the marines have a single viable unit to either math up against each eldar unit/weapon or the marines have a single viable unit. 

[pretre]

It's also noteworthy, as mentioned, that unless we're playing unbound, you have to take a bunch of lack luster stuff to get the 'OP' RW Knights from C:DA. There's hardly any fat in taking a CAD with a Jetseer plus as many bikes as you want.

[Guest]

So, how viable are these eldar bike units if they are force to snapfire? Like overwatch, or because of jink (skyfire isn't in question, as it [big bad swear word]ty for everyone).

 

Seems like, if the eldar player goes second, or even just has a bad first turn, the odds that your many bike units will need to jink are pretty good. Once they jink the first time, I'm wondering how many more times they'll get to fire at full BS before they finish the game.

[Jayne_Cobbb]

The jet bikes can engage a knight at long long ranger. If the RW bikes engage a knight, they die to the assault if they don't kill it with shooting.

[pretre]

So, how viable are these eldar bike units if they are force to snapfire? Like overwatch, or because of jink (skyfire isn't in question, as it [big bad swear word]ty for everyone).

 

Seems like, if the eldar player goes second, or even just has a bad first turn, the odds that your many bike units will need to jink are pretty good. Once they jink the first time, I'm wondering how many more times they'll get to fire at full BS before they finish the game.

They are roughly (4/6 Normal Hits vs 1/6 Jink Hits) 1/4 as viable when they snapfire. You can deploy them out of LOS, of course, or leave them off the board and use an autarch to bring them in turn 2.

[Guest]

It's also noteworthy, as mentioned, that unless we're playing unbound, you have to take a bunch of lack luster stuff to get the 'OP' RW Knights from C:DA. There's hardly any fat in taking a CAD with a Jetseer plus as many bikes as you want.

I believe I started with this...

 

The reason I don't play DA anymore, too many tax units. The codex has lots of gems, but it is mostly coal.

 

The jet bikes can engage a knight at long long ranger. If the RW bikes engage a knight, they die to the assault if they don't kill it with shooting.

We've been over this. Go back a page or two. Or did you mean the deep striking Dreadknight?