Codex Eldar confirmed

[Torg]

well - last year I ran Wraith Wall … lol.  Which I had thought of just updating slightly - and finish painting them.  ( I picked up the newer wraith guard to replace my old smaller ones over the winter).  But now I am pretty sure that list will be hard to get in.  Currently I am thinking I may just gather up old figures i have and run a corsair list to avoid the whole new codex controversy this time around lol.  It will still be valid as far as I know… although maybe a bit of a to far jump in the weak direction.  Although, hornets with pulse lasers… falcons… 2 flyers and warp hunter will be lots of dakka.  

 

- I will run through the list and post something up soon.

 

-d

[pretre]

Ahh, Rhino Rush. Those were good times.

[Guest]

Because the space marines have a single unit which is equally viable, the Eldar have a few On much more versatile platforms.

Which one are you thinking of?

[pretre]

well - last year I ran Wraith Wall … lol.  Which I had thought of just updating slightly - and finish painting them.  ( I picked up the newer wraith guard to replace my old smaller ones over the winter).  But now I am pretty sure that list will be hard to get in.  Currently I am thinking I may just gather up old figures i have and run a corsair list to avoid the whole new codex controversy this time around lol.  It will still be valid as far as I know… although maybe a bit of a to far jump in the weak direction.  Although, hornets with pulse lasers… falcons… 2 flyers and warp hunter will be lots of dakka.  

 

- I will run through the list and post something up soon.

 

-d

Hornets with Pulse, Falcons, 2 Flyers and Warp Hunter sounds pretty tame compared to what you could run.

 

Also, walking Wraithwall would not be so bad, imo.

[pretre]

Which one are you thinking of?

Let's reverse that: Pax, what SM units do you think are overpowered or even equally viable to the new Eldar book?

[crono]

Why is it that Eldar always have a few units/weapons which are dubbed really broken, but space marines don't run really run into the same opposition, even if they have an equally viable unit?

Pax, while I would like to breakdown more then one unit.

 

For example please tell me a if a unit in the SM dex that has all of the following for 27 points a model:

 

Moves 12"

turbo-boost 36"

4 str 6 shots with 36" range / or 3 str 6 bladestorm shots with 24" range

Have built in Relentless, and HoW

Can be from unit size 3-10.

 

Depending on the detachment selection - objective secured

Depending on the special rules selection - for 1 turn the model can get shred

 

What you'll find is that there is no space marine equivalent for 27 point.  Sure you can get kinda close, but in this case, there is no tax, weird formation, or really any deficiency that is required.  Even I have to admit this unit, is a bit outlandish, but still not as bad an "easy-button" that the previous codex serpent spam was/is.  Having said that, I can totally understand a marine player asking the question:  Why can't I have a cool toy like that to add to my collection, and wreck face?

[Guest]

Let's reverse that: Pax, what SM units do you think are overpowered or even equally viable to the new Eldar book?

I was just curious.

 

I'm not overly impressed with the new eldar book.

 

Oh, and the marine equivalent of the bikes you keep going on about, are the RW Knights/Command squad at 40-ish points per model. And they are definitely 13pts better than those eldar bikers.

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Lol

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Have you ever actually played a game?

[pretre]

I was just curious.

 

I'm not overly impressed with the new eldar book.

 

Oh, and the marine equivalent of the bikes you keep going on about, are the RW Knights/Command squad at 40-ish points per model. And they are definitely 13pts better than those eldar bikers.

How are they 13 points better?

 

Just off the top of my head: Smaller turbo-boost, higher T/S, Not Ob-Sec, No Jump-Shoot-Jump, Shorter Range, Less Shots, higher AP, etc. so on.

 

I would take the Eldar before the RW everyday of the week.

[Guest]

How are they 13 points better?

 

Just off the top of my head: Smaller turbo-boost, higher T/S, Not Ob-Sec, No Jump-Shoot-Jump, Shorter Range, Less Shots, higher AP, etc. so on.

 

I would take the Eldar before the RW everyday of the week.

The Eldar CODEX is certainly better than the DA one, but you asked for the marine equivalent. And that unit is certainly OP if looked at in isolation (DA codex is certainly lacking, but that unit is a diamond in the rough).

 

Let's see, stock unit has Scout, hit and run, skilled rider, better weapons: plasma talons (which 1 in 3 can swap for the RW grenade launcher for free), S5 paired melee weapons with rending, ATSKNF, stubborn, higher toughness, higher strength, frag and krak grenades, higher leadership.

 

Then, if using RW command squads, they've got the banner access and the FNP access.

 

As for objective secured, again, that is not a special rule of the bikers. They are troops, yes, but they require additional rules to be objective secured. Also, the 27pt unit, while nifty in shooting, is not durable enough to HOLD objectives, especially if assaults can be made. You'll likely be looking at another 100pts (or more) in ICs to make them viable as objective secured units for games where you can't just steal the objective last minute.

 

My argument is that, in isolation, RW Knights/command squads are the marine equivalent of your 27pt bikers.

[pretre]

I disagree. 40 points is just too spendy for a 1 wound model.

[Guest]

Anyway, point isn't to rant about those RW knights.

 

My question still hasn't been answered:

 

 

Because the space marines have a single unit which is equally viable, the Eldar have a few On much more versatile platforms.

 

Which one are you thinking of?

 

[pretre]

But you'd pay 27pts for an all around weaker model?

Yes. Because the I'm paying for pure profit at that point. The 40 points has so many little buffs that are situational and I don't need. The 27 point model is pure offense with a side of situational buffs/scoring/etc.

[fluger]

Pax, you amaze me.  

[crono]

The Eldar CODEX is certainly better than the DA one, but you asked for the marine equivalent. And that unit is certainly OP if looked at in isolation (DA codex is certainly lacking, but that unit is a diamond in the rough).

 

Let's see, stock unit has Scout, hit and run, skilled rider, better weapons: plasma talons (which 1 in 3 can swap for the RW grenade launcher for free), S5 paired melee weapons with rending, ATSKNF, stubborn, higher toughness, higher strength, frag and krak grenades, higher leadership.

 

Then, if using RW command squads, they've got the banner access and the FNP access.

 

As for objective secured, again, that is not a special rule of the bikers. They are troops, yes, but they require additional rules to be objective secured. Also, the 27pt unit, while nifty in shooting, is not durable enough to HOLD objectives, especially if assaults can be made. You'll likely be looking at another 100pts (or more) in ICs to make them viable as objective secured units for games where you can't just steal the objective last minute.

 

My argument is that, in isolation, RW Knights/command squads are the marine equivalent of your 27pt bikers.

Main thing Pax... this isn't the equivalent.

 

You are asking the audience to accept they are an equivalent without a reasonable case.  The unit you describes is a good unit, but not a 27 point unit.  It simply doesn't have the range fire power.  The better weapons comment really only applies to the ability to select CC weapons.  The unit also has a size cap limitation, and is slower in terms of overall movement potential.

 

Also, how is the model an all around weaker model, if it is significantly more likely to kill the RW unit (or most other treats that would even target them) before the enemy has a chance to respond?

[cadaver2k]

The top lists at big events have White Scars bikes not Dark Angels, that for me would suggest that the masses say WS are better then DA.I have not even heard of DA bikes of any sort being allied in to a list that did well at an event. I could be wrong with this entire post but I have a large and meta capable bike army and I see the eldar bikes as being a BIG problem. Just my 2cents.

[pretre]

Yep. Let's say 

4 Eldar vs 3 RW

 

4 Eldar - 12 Shots, 8 Hits. 16/3 Wounds. 16/9 Dead at 36 Inches.

3 RW - Plasma shooting at 24 (which they should never get to do)... What, 3 Shots, Even with all three hitting, that's 15/6 Wounds, 15/12 Dead. 

 

Eldar will outshoot the RW everytime. Yeah, if the RW assault they'll wreck face, but they never get that close.

[Guest]

 

Let's reverse that: Pax, what SM units do you think are overpowered or even equally viable to the new Eldar book?

Man, pretre, you really are an effective little troll. Completely derailed my question and got them going on this nonsense.

[WestRider]

Yep. Let's say 

4 Eldar vs 3 RW

 

4 Eldar - 12 Shots, 8 Hits. 16/3 Wounds. 16/9 Dead at 36 Inches.

3 RW - Plasma shooting at 24 (which they should never get to do)... What, 3 Shots, Even with all three hitting, that's 15/6 Wounds, 15/12 Dead. 

 

Eldar will outshoot the RW everytime. Yeah, if the RW assault they'll wreck face, but they never get that close.

The disparity is even greater since the RW Plasma Talons are only 18" Range.

[pretre]

Why is it that Eldar always have a few units/weapons which are dubbed really broken, but space marines don't run really run into the same opposition, even if they have an equally viable unit?

Troll is probably incorrect in this instance. I simply asked you to support your question.

[pretre]

The disparity is even greater since the RW Plasma Talons are only 18" Range.

Oh god. They'll never get a shot, even with scout.

[Guest]

Troll is probably incorrect in this instance. I simply asked you to support your question.

It is correct and I wasn't insulting you. Very impressive. Might have 3-5 pages of us debating this instead of answering the very simple question I asked (which was the same question, I was asking him to support a statement, which you replied asking me to support my question).

[Guest]

Anyway, back to the the biker debate, I suppose.

 

 

Yep. Let's say 

4 Eldar vs 3 RW

 

4 Eldar - 12 Shots, 8 Hits. 16/3 Wounds. 16/9 Dead at 36 Inches.

3 RW - Plasma shooting at 24 (which they should never get to do)... What, 3 Shots, Even with all three hitting, that's 15/6 Wounds, 15/12 Dead. 

 

Eldar will outshoot the RW everytime. Yeah, if the RW assault they'll wreck face, but they never get that close.

Why are they shooting at eachother? Like seriously.

 

RW knights with TL plasma shots should not be firing at that unit because it isn't worth shooting at.

 

It's like comparing a demolisher cannon to a battle cannon against eldar bikers and saying the the battle just as good, but cheaper. Certainly true, but it's a terrible assessment of the two weapons.

[pretre]

It is correct and I wasn't insulting you. Very impressive. Might have 3-5 pages of us debating this instead of answering the very simple question I asked (which was the same question, I was asking him to support a statement, which you replied asking me to support my question).

Maybe you aren't aware of what troll actually means?

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,^[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^[3]"

 

^{You made a statement. I asked you a question to clarify your statement that was on-topic for both the thread and the question. Are you aware of the socratic method? It's used as a form of debate to reflect back on the question itself and stimulate further debate/learning.}