Codex Eldar confirmed

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Pax. They have jump shoot jump. They will always be in cover, or behind los blocking terrain.

 

And, they will be engaging you at log range, where you can't just rapid fire them down.

 

Then, when you get close, they will redeploy 48 inches away.

 

For the points of a tactical squad, you get more shots, more strength, more mobility, more survivability, no need for a transport, and still obsec.

 

How many armies can spam AV 13/14?

 

Necrons (but that is not the good build) imperial knights (if you can call that spam)...?

 

How can you not see that this unit is a game breaker?

[Guest]

Pax. They have jump shoot jump. They will always be in cover, or behind los blocking terrain.

 

How many armies can spam AV 13/14?

First, windriders lack skilled rider, as far as I know, so if they resort to cover, they are looking dangerous terrain tests. Not a huge issue, but a legit concern with small units and low base leadership (unless they have higher in the new codex).

 

Then, if the point is them being objective secured, they need to stay within 3" of the objective at the end of their turn. So the jump shoot jump is limited by objective placement.

 

As for spamming AV 13/14, that would be every army. Every army can take lots of buildings. Buildings are typically AV14.

[Sugarlessllama]

Is the new Eldar Codex super strong? Yes.

 

Is it the end of the 40K as we know it? Nope.

 

I think a smart player is going go always come up with a roster that is going to be tough to play against, no matter the "strength" of the codex. It will just be easier to do with some armies.

 

With the above being said, now we need to look at this through a social solution lens. If someone brought an Eldar army that consisted of the Windrider Host formation, and the Wraith Host formation presented in their alternate force org chart; I would gladly play them. Would I lose, well... maybe. With my current collection: most likely. But they were a fun opponent, I'm going to have a good time losing. And would ask to replay that roster with a different part of my collection. If you look at opposing rosters as puzzles, then rematches against tough enemy rosters becomes something to look forward to ( IMO ^_^ )

 

If we take the above, but instead make the opponent a jerk about everything during the game. Then I wouldn't play against them again. And if the same behavior continues, eventually they will not be able to find someone to play with.

 

If Eldar player shows up with a army that consists of 4 units of jetbikes, Farseer on a Jetbike, Spiritseer on a Jetbike, and 5 Wraitknights... well that doesn't seem like it would be too fun to play against. I would play against it once, and if it felt like I would rather be at the dentist, then I wouldn't play against that roster again. Other people might feel the same, and so the individual in question would have a hard time finding an opponent. 

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that the player makes the Codex fun or un-fun. And we should treat it as such. :D

[AgentP]

As far as potential lists, here is a quick one.  This clocks in about 1820 or so.  Now please caveat this by noting that"m not an eldar player, nor am I a good tournament player.  So is this some kind of optimal tournament list?  No.  But it looks nasty.  And if sucky ol' me can come up with it in 5 minutes, you know much tougher lists are going to hit the tournament scene:

 

Craftworld Warhost Detachment

 

Windrider Host

Farseer Windrunner                                                                                   

Warlock Skyrunner                                                                                    

3 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

3 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

3 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

Viper Squadron                                                                                   

 

Wraith-Constructs

Wraithknight, 2 wraithcannons                                                           

 

Combined Arms Detachment

HQ

Spirit Seer                                                                                               

 

CORE

6 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

6 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

6 Windriders, scatter lasers                                                                       

 

HEAVY

2 D-Cannon support batteries                                                           

2 D-Cannon support batteries                                                           

 

LoW

Wraithknight, 2 wraithcannons

 

This list has 108 Str 6 scatter laser shots, plus 4 ranged D shots rerolling TO HIT of 1 by being near the spirit seer, and another 4 ranged D blast barrage shots.  It also has ample psyker support.                                                       

[galahad911]

Less than half their point allotment? Really? In a vacuum? I'm sorry but no this is wishful thinking. Being able to just take a shot at most things in the game is going to be a pain. If you can roll a bucket of dice against most targets and yes str 6 hurts MOST targets it is good in or outside of a vacuum.

I think we're saying the same thing here. I would take 6 squads of 5 bikes, for 810 points, less then half the army's total points in most tournaments, and then I would take 3 squads of either wraith guard or fire dragons in serpents, a couple jet seers should out you at or near 1850. Anything I can not kill with my 120 scatter laser shots would get d weaponed/meltagunned down. What I meant is that just focusing on the bikes and not considering the rest of a list, or looking at the bikes in a vacuum, is pointless.

[AgentP]

Or another:

 

Combined Arms Detachment

 

HQ

Spirit Seer

 

ELITE

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

 

TROOPS

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

5 Windriders, scatter lasers           

      

[Guest]

deleted

[Guest]

Or another:

 

Combined Arms Detachment

 

HQ

Spirit Seer

 

ELITE

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent

 

TROOPS

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

6 Windriders, scatter lasers           

5 Windriders, scatter lasers           

      

So plan isn't to do this:

 

Then you stick a warlock upgrade in each one with the primaris power and the unit is shrouded.  Even without jink they now have 5+ cover, and if they're in terrain (easy to do), they're up to a 3+ cover minimum and at full BS.  The unit will never need to jink.

[fluger]

I think you'll find that the sweet spot is going to be about 4 units of 5.  That's only 540 pts, but it fulfills the Troops Requirement and kicks out a ton of shooting while not being too cumbersome on the table.  Now you get 2 units of 5 wraithguard with d scythes in wave serpents.  That's 670 pts more.  Oh, and put bright lances on the wave serpents.  You need a farseer so, there's 105 pts let's say.  We're at 1315 pts.  Add in one of my favorite units, D Cannons, three of them.  Now we're at 1480 and we have a nifty place to hide our farseer.  I'd probably fill out the rest of this with some distraction and fast attack stuff, say a mix of striking scorpions/warp spiders/swooping hawks.  8 striking scorps with an exarch with scorpion's claw is both a nice threat and also fairly cheap at 176.  A unit of 5 swooping hawks with an exarch (for the no scatter) is 90 pts.  85 pts nets us 5 warp spiders.  I think I'd go with 2x Warpspiders and one unit of swooping hawks.  That sits us at 1916 pts.  Either you shave 66 pts to get to 1850 or you add 84 to get to 2k.  Either way, you're looking at a fast moving, hard hitting list that can distract as well at punch you in the dick.

 

I could probably make a BETTER list that is more scary if I start adding things like wraithknights or hornets or something, but this isn't even a power list IMO and it's already borderline disgusting.  Most lists can't outshoot it, and the few that can it can out maneuver. 

[Prophecy]

Well now that I think about it you could just zip them back behind the tank. After shooting and have the serpents block site or create a barrier. That's actually a good list imho. Kinda bland but why you made it is obvious and it wasn't for flavor.

[crono]

First, windriders lack skilled rider, as far as I know, so if they resort to cover, they are looking dangerous terrain tests. Not a huge issue, but a legit concern with small units and low base leadership (unless they have higher in the new codex).

 

Then, if the point is them being objective secured, they need to stay within 3" of the objective at the end of their turn. So the jump shoot jump is limited by objective placement.

 

As for spamming AV 13/14, that would be every army. Every army can take lots of buildings. Buildings are typically AV14.

 

Pax, you crack me up.  I like the idea of not taking the "chicken little" approach to the new dex.  But this point to counter-point approach really doesn't hold much water. 

The first thing, about the dangerous terrain tests: It's not a legit concern.  The percentage chance of failing the inital test is 1/6, then 1/3 for the armor save, then failing (even leadership eight) around 7/25... That is a tall order of consecutive failures.  Statistically the actual likelihood of occurrence is so low, it shouldn't effect the decision making process for any player.

 

With respect to objective secured - it will only matter if the objective is even available to achieve if in a maelstrom game, or in a standard objective game this typically is only a concern towards the end of the game when it becomes about scoring those objectives.  Early on, the jet bikes will make appropriate use of cover in general.  And unless the opponent is also using aggressive deep striking or similarly fast units to claim distant maelstrom objectives early on, the intelligent Eldar player will use non-jetbike units AKA warp spiders, scorptions, wraithguard, and wraithlord, hell in my case harlequins to claim early maelstrom objectives near my deployment zone.

 

About the buildings: Yes, everyone can take a fair number of buildings... this is true, but comes at a cost that most list (as I visualize it) would be much less effective.  Even then, if the eldar player decides on playing a hemlock, wraithguard, or even old school fire dragons in deepstriking falcons... The buildings are not very likely to have the protection that you are looking for.  Meanwhile... 4 minimum units of jetbikes are still going to 64 shots at up to 4 different targets.

 

 

Also, about the list build, I think fluger is correct.  4~5 jetbikes will be the sweet spot.  I will start experimenting with MSU eldar, with harlequins detachment in the next few weeks.

[Guest]

Pax, you crack me up.  I like the idea of not taking the "chicken little" approach to the new dex.  But this point to counter-point approach really doesn't hold much water. 

The first thing, about the dangerous terrain tests: It's not a legit concern.  The percentage chance of failing the inital test is 1/6, then 1/3 for the armor save, then failing (even leadership eight) around 7/25... That is a tall order of consecutive failures.  Statistically the actual likelihood of occurrence is so low, it shouldn't effect the decision making process for any player.

 

With respect to objective secured - it will only matter if the objective is even available to achieve if in a maelstrom game, or in a standard objective game this typically is only a concern towards the end of the game when it becomes about scoring those objectives.  Early on, the jet bikes will make appropriate use of cover in general.  And unless the opponent is also using aggressive deep striking or similarly fast units to claim distant maelstrom objectives early on, the intelligent Eldar player will use non-jetbike units AKA warp spiders, scorptions, wraithguard, and wraithlord, hell in my case harlequins to claim early maelstrom objectives near my deployment zone.

 

About the buildings: Yes, everyone can take a fair number of buildings... this is true, but comes at a cost that most list (as I visualize it) would be much less effective.  Even then, if the eldar player decides on playing a hemlock, wraithguard, or even old school fire dragons in deepstriking falcons... The buildings are not very likely to have the protection that you are looking for.  Meanwhile... 4 minimum units of jetbikes are still going to 64 shots at up to 4 different targets.

 

 

Also, about the list build, I think fluger is correct.  4~5 jetbikes will be the sweet spot.  I will start experimenting with MSU eldar, with harlequins detachment in the next few weeks.

A few bits I disagree with, but mostly agree. The fine points:

 

Dangerous terrain isn't an issue for most units, because, as you say, the odds are low that it would affect most units. That said, we're talking about a 6-man unit that plans to move through dangerous terrain twice per turn. The test is done whenever you start in or exit difficult terrain, if you are a jetbike, so the "jump, shoot, jump" approach means 2 dangerous terrain checks per model per turn, if you plan to be actually entering cover for the cover save. So a unit of 6 is taking 12 dangerous terrain checks per turn. Yeah, odds are still pretty low, but unit is at a size where a few deaths will result in a morale check. Leadership 8 is decent, but with a plan to keep them backfield, the jump, shoot, jump though terrain really isn't a great plan.

 

Very related, had a recent game where my 5-man GK strike squad scattered into terrain and lost 2 members to the dangerous terrain. They did fail their 8 leadership. I was just very thankful that they were both mid-field and they had ATSKNF.

 

Agree completely that buildings subtract value from armies. Very rarely do they add fire output enough to justify their point drain on the army. That said, if you are fielding your 120 shot biker army that can't damage the building with any of those 120shots, I may consider fielding buildings in my army that doesn't benefit from them in an offensive capacity. Even that GI-joe playset starts having merit if I can ignore 972pts of your army with it (4 buildings, works out to about 55pts per AV14 building, isn't a formation).

 

On a side note, I think what GW was thinking with the scatter bikers is that they present a solid method to punch void shields out with mandatory troops, so your revenant titan has a clear shot for their D weapons or sonic lances....Does seem like GW logic - so very out of touch. Makes the revenant lists all the more unbalanced...

 

Was really hoping that GW would include the revenant in the new eldar book with some much more reasonable rules for normal 40k.

[Steel Angel]

Saddly i wanted to start an Eldar Army,but now not even going to touch it. I for one dont want attitude like folks got from a grey knights army in 5th ed.

[Guest]

Saddly i wanted to start an Eldar Army,but now not even going to touch it. I for one dont want attitude like folks got from a grey knights army in 5th ed.

The thing with that one was, that after the BA had their I:5 marine FNP army, my army switched over to TH/SS terms, Vindicators, land raiders, ironclads and Plasma, which saw no real drop in effectiveness against the GK horde of 5th. Mind you, that was the edition where you could hit flyers with demolisher cannons because flyers were just skimmers and they needed to forgo the shooting phase to get jink. The GK 5th codex got dramatically stronger with the 6th ed flyer rules and the removal of ap2 denial of FNP.

 

I think more eldar players would be good, as it increases the odds that opponents will generate viable tactics/unit combinations for dealing with them and ranged D in general.

[fluger]

Saddly i wanted to start an Eldar Army,but now not even going to touch it. I for one dont want attitude like folks got from a grey knights army in 5th ed.

 

Honestly, if you eschew scatterbikes, wraithguard, and wraithknights I can't see anyone truly complaining. 

[Steel Angel]

Thats the point though i want a wrightknight lol

[generalripphook]

Buildings are not an answer to jetbikes, sure you can sit on two objectives but the eldar player can just zip around and claim ubjevtives all day long as you sit in your buildings.

[fluger]

It's like France using the Maginot line to stop the blitzkreig. 

[Guest]

Buildings are not an answer to jetbikes, sure you can sit on two objectives but the eldar player can just zip around and claim ubjevtives all day long as you sit in your buildings.

Completely agree.

 

Idea would be to put units in buildings just long enough to force the bikes to jink(via shooting from the army). Once the bikes start jinking, they'll likely have to continue all game or hide for an entire turn. Forcing them to snap is a pretty solid way to ignore most of their shooting without the buildings.

 

Eldar bikers make me tempted to field a basilisk. Not about killing them, but about forcing the eldar player to jink. It isn't like those eldar can hide outside of range....

[fluger]

I have 2 in my IG list already... Mostly because I own the models...

[Guest]

I have 2 in my IG list already... Mostly because I own the models...

How good are they in 7th? Looks really lacking on paper, especially as it's right next to the manticore and deathstrike (I love the deathstrike).

[AbusePuppy]

See, that's my point. If Eldar are bringing 972pts of S6 shooty bikers, the AV13-14 transports (including buildings) start looking very viable.

 

Thankfully, the Eldar have no access to weapons that can destroy high-AV targets easily so this plan is perfect. Nothing that can Deep Strike or with 36" range, no units with durable transports, and not a single Meltagun or Destroyer weapon in the entire codex- it's essentially a foolproof plan. Moreover, because you are commiting yourself to a static position against the most mobile army in the game, the terrain will naturally favor you, as will all five of the objectives that have been placed next to your building.

 

I can see no flaws in this suggestion.

[Guest]

Thankfully, the Eldar have no access to weapons that can destroy high-AV targets easily so this plan is perfect. Nothing that can Deep Strike or with 36" range, no units with durable transports, and not a single Meltagun or Destroyer weapon in the entire codex- it's essentially a foolproof plan. Moreover, because you are commiting yourself to a static position against the most mobile army in the game, the terrain will naturally favor you, as will all five of the objectives that have been placed next to your building.

 

I can see no flaws in this suggestion.

I see your point, but I don't agree.

 

There is no perfect defense, certainly, but a properly layered defense can get pretty close. In this case, the AV13/14 transport approach is but a layer.

 

Buildings being a static position is a bit of a misnomer in 40k, as both players are committing to that 6'x4' table regardless of movement options for their units. 40k is a game of static positions, where we've decided to fight over a specific spot with two seemly equal armies. The table edges, are the very cornerstones for the static nature of 40k.

 

I still like the classic story of 40k on the kitchen table. Imperial Guard player opts to deploy his basilisk in the kitchen sink, which is allowed due to the humorous nature of being so far away from the actual battle. The space marine player has to then dedicate an entire assault squad to deep strike into the kitchen sink to deal with it, knowing full well the unlikely nature of ever having his assault marines rejoin the battle.

[pretre]

Also dangerous terrain is only a problem if you land in it. The idea is to hide behind BLOS cover.

[fluger]

How good are [basilisks] in 7th? Looks really lacking on paper, especially as it's right next to the manticore and deathstrike (I love the deathstrike).

 

The advantage they have over the Manticore is that they are AP3 and I can get two in the slot instead of one.  Obviously, I'm paying more for that, but it's nice.  Manticore is obviously better at hitting vehicles by dint of better S, and, on average, it gets as many shots as my two basilisks at a cheaper price point.  It's also easier to hide it.  That said, the Basilisk is really good at a few things, namely, going after artillery which it wounds on 2s and gets rid of their armor save.  This is nice for dealing with things like the thunderfire cannons.  Additionally, the AP3 and high strength AND long range is nice for going after things like Broadsides or Wraithlords. 

 

It's not a TERRIBLE gun or platform, it's just overpriced for what it does.  Were they 100 pts each, I think they'd be about perfect, but that extra 25 points really hurts them.