MexicanNinja

Right, as of right now, there is no engineer upgrade for the organ. You would very rarely misfire. If they add it as option, in the upcomming book, then I would be ok with rolling to hit.

The models, as a whole, look much better than the current ones. This should be a great release. I'm hoping for a good book. I'm already thinking about the next escalation. I have two armies in mind, dwarfs being one of them.

Sweet, thanks for the link. I jungle when I need to. It's the hardest role to learn.

What level is your summoner and what role do you prefer? I've been sitting at 30 for a long while and prefer to adc or solo top.

There are a few things to account for here: 1) Will engineers still be a war machine upgrade? If so, they bring the odds of hitting up. 2) The auto hit may still be there. I know I stated I could seem the rule dropping; however, from a purely-player perspective, I could also see the rule staying. It's not the same as a hellblaster. It's still only a max of 10 shots still needing to wound. With the hellblaster you could get up to 30 shots at BS4 with a master engineer. So, it really comes down to how GW wants to make this specific war machine stand apart from the volley gun. Do I currently hate the auto hit? Of course I do, because I don't have access to one. Do i think the rule is legit, yes.

Anyone play League of Legends?

It looks like space marine. Nothing too eye popping to me.

I played the game briefly. I prefer my BL2 and LoL. However, as a DND player since 1st ed, I will say the game is extremely fun. The cool feature, which seperates this from other MMO's, is the ability to do nothing but play quests made by other players. That was one of the main things I did. I found that to be a ton of fun. The creation for some of them was amazing.

I think the newly done base looks more like sand.

I could honestly see the auto hit rule going away. That is a brutal mechanic.

Gonzo (attacker) vs Brian (defender) Gonzo win The Chaos traitor (COL Straken and Warlord) was slain The funniest part about Straken dying was that he was hiding behind a leman russ so my wolf priest couldn't living lightning him. Then, I blow up the tank with a krak missile and Straken falls to tank debri. I will say, the model of the match (if nothing more than annoyance) had to be the vendetta. I didn't pop it until the top of turn 7. That thing made so many jinx saves. In the end, the Inquisition destroyed the nurgle host. The dreadknight went to happy town on the plague bearers and herald. The Inquistiion will be watching closely as the battles wage on the newly founded planet.

All I can hope for is a good book that meshes with 8th ed. I look forward to the changes. I can see the book making slight changes here and there. The major changes are going to obviously be with the runes. However, they are still dwarfs, they still have access to tons of war machines, and they will still most likely be slow. As far as the current builds go, I could see minor changes to units, heros, new units, and other things affecting the list builds. However, the one thing I don't see happening is Dwarfs not wanting to molest the war machine selections. That's their bread and butter. Dwarfs like to shoot big guns and they have access to a lot of them.

Well, you did have to try and match my old-sloppy paint job from like 2005. I only know I used blue, white, and woodstain.

The main thing to remember here is that the meta has drastically changed from the beginning of 8th until now. At first, you saw lots of hordes. This then died out because the "big" spells from certain lores were wiping them out. Then, you saw the shift to MSU and MI/MC/MB being more common. You are simply able to get more out of certain units than others. I would also have do disagree with your second statement about core taken at the minimum. That is actually a good thing. In 7th you would just take the 2 smallest unit sizes needed for core and go to happy town in the other departments. Having to spend a minimum amount of points, even if that's all they spend, is a good thing. There are many armies out there with solid core choices. The fact is that because of the current meta with 8th edition, you get the tools needed to deal with certain elements from your special and rare slots. I can honestly say that I have charged all three of the above untis and have walked, or ran, away as the victor. Ironguts are tough; however, if you are able to deny them the chance to ever see combat then those are wasted points. Also, you may not want to engage them at 100% combat effectiveness. Would you engage them at say 65% or lower combat effectiveness? It's not always about the initial set up. You have to think about the tools your army has in order to make those units a better match up. I know that when I charge my chariots at things they will mostly likely be beaten in a round or two. However, if I am able to kill X amount of models or do X amount of wounds from impact hits before he drops then I am happy. As far as the 50-50 thing you speak of. There are just some units/builds that will always Clown something. Everything in this game has a counter.

I'll be there at some point after 3:30 with Wolves and Grey Knights.

I will have to disagree with that statement. I think the core for High Elves are meant to supplement the Special choices for the army. I have seen Silver Helms get stuck in combat because after the first round they are still only S3 and don't have the damage output any longer. I have seen units of 30 Sea Guard do just fine with both the flying circus you are able to create and I've seen small units of archers work just fine when people use a big block of White Lions. I think it really depends on what you want the unit to do with the rest of your army. There are a lot of tools for many armies to use, in order to deal with a unit of Silver Helms.

Normal missions from the main rule book are being used. Anything else needs to be agreed upon by both participants.

Looks like a fun list. The funny thing about chaos warriors is that even the warriors have solid damage output and survivability.

I will give you a quick example of how to deal with that type of army with your own. It's not the problem with your army. I believe it's the lack of experience against a fast MSU mobile army. Here's a simple solution, although it may take some practice at becoming proficient with it (even more so, if your opponent knows this tactic). You need to decide which section of the board you want to control. How do I do this, you may ask yourself? Easy, you know that he doesn't want to engage your army with most of his stuff. You now use this to your advantage. You have to split your army into 2 elements now: 1) You have to decide which units are going to move to engage the unit straight on. 2) Which units you will use as your "swing". By doing this, you are able to deploy blocks of infantry and possibly a Stegadon (preferrably in the middle of the two (that way he can counter charge for either block of infantry). You then send some more mobile elements on one single flank (yes, you need to overwhelm one side only. Now, after deployment, the goal is to leave him no room to deploy scouts on your flanks, or in the rear of your main line (be sure to measure out the distance to deny them scout placements). The next part, is a bit more tricky. You know they have all those vanguard moves. You know need to try and make it so that there aren't many options for them to move to. Units of 5 dark riders don't want to move towards blocks of infantry 1st turn, so you need to either make it so they use the vanguard to just move left or right, or that they can't sneak past your lines in the following movement phase. You do this again, by spreading out your units so they can't squeeze past. Yes, this will mean that more often than not that your skinks are going to be on a flank by themselves and potential targets for shooting. However, they now need to spend a turn of shooting before moving into prime positioning. Now, after the deployment is done, you will want to move your main force foward while "closing the door" with your "supporting" flank. When I say closing the door, picture a door closing. When the door shuts, you have no where to go. The ultimate goal is to use the supporting flank to swing shut and force the opponent into some rather unpleasant situations: 1) As you have half your army moving forward and the remiander of your army closing the door, your opponent should have to make some important movement decisions. Do they move towards your main line or start exposing their flanks while trying to deal with your door? 2) Since the majority of your shooting is on one flank, all that small unit size fast cav will be getting shot at as your supporting flank moves. If you have a Stegadon to help strengthen that supporting flank, now you have something to either charge with to force terror checks, start panicking some of their army, or just ot use as counter charges. 3) Once you have your opponent with that type of list pinned down somewhere, all that movement means nothing and they are now wasting the most valuable piece of the army. The movement. I will say, once you start to add flying monsters into the above equation, it's much more difficult to use this tactic. It's also harder to explain through posting a message. Hopefully, I will be able to meet you at a near future Sunday game night.

If mauraders follow the same rules as chaos warrior champions, they can't refuse a challenge and must always issue one (at least that's how I remember them). Am I incorrect with mauraders? I don't see them much on the table.

This system is based around min/max builds and does not take into account player skill. You know your army well and use the strengths/weaknesses very well. Don't worry, my all mounted list is only rated at about a 14. Alot of the points depend on certain units being maxed or doubled up and the use of certain spell choices.

Nice list, that looks like a fun one. To both play against and play with. I agree with the 2 units of 2 fell bats. It provides to units of chaff over one and two targets your opponent has to deal with over one. The unit of 4 should crumble after the first round of most combats.

I STRONGLY suggest keeping that ogre blade. It will give you a consitent S6 attack and allows you to make great use of your ASF. If I'm correct, you pump out 9 S6 attacks before thunderstomps. Yes, the great weapon is cheaper and you still get to strike at your initiative; however, that Ogre Blade has paid off more times than once when I boch my attack rolls with my DE lord on a dragon. Keep the Ogre Blade, you'll get better results over the great weapon. I have to disagree with dropping the lion chariots. I'd keep them, they have better damage output. I will agree though, you need a few eagles to take shooting priority away from your other units.

Vargheists aren't bad. I've seen them used in a horde of 18 and that was pretty brutal. I just don't think most VC players know how to use them properly. They are quite devestating on the charge. I'm in no way encouraging or suggesting to you that you should use the ethereal screens. Like I've stated many times here, I love your list and what it is capable of doing.

For list 2: IMO, you should break the unit of 5 skull crushers into 2 units of 3. The champion and standard upgrade aren't really needed, and you lose out with attacks from the second rank. Those units should be hitting a unit to either soften them up and hold them in place or force flees. Or, you could go 2 units of crushers; one at a unit size of three (for your BSB to join) and another and a unit size of 4. I would also consider dropping the champion from the horsemen. He could get into some unwanted challenges and end up giving your opponent more CR than needed.