Ethics of 3D printing

[Sgt. Rock]

So, I'll start off by saying that if this is too close to RoC content, or gets to that point, mods, please nuke the thread. I don't want to be responsible for flame wars.

That said, I'm running into a quandary with my new 3D printer. I've found that it's capable of printing in such detail that I can quite convincingly clone parts of my 40k models. Now, printing an army wholesale is out of the question. First off, that's a lot of filament, and secondly, I need to support the stores I play at. That said, I know it's generally accepted to go ahead and print spare bits. My ethical quandary I'm running into is this: what constitutes a spare bit? Here's the specific scenario. A box of tactical marines comes with a crapload of weapons, backpacks, heads, shoulder plates, etc., but only enough legs and torsos to make ten guys. So I buy a box, make my ten guys, and now I have a ton of plastic that's going to waste, sitting there in my bits box taking up space. I know nobody would bat an eye if I printed up a dozen spare bolters, or some custom shoulders or something. But the legs and torsos, being what I guess you could say are the "core" of the model, are a bit more questionable for me. Because really, once you've bought a box of tactical marines, in this case, you don't need more bolters/shoulders/backpacks/heads. You need more legs and torsos, that's what you spend your money for. Now, I'm not saying that GW is going to lose their shirts over a few tactical marines, but part of supporting our hobby is buying products from the companies that produce our games. If I print up a whole tactical squad's worth of marine legs and torsos, even if all the other bits are official GW, that's $45 I'm not spending at my LGS. While certainly better for my wallet, that's not great for the places I like to play. So I'm torn; do I have an ethical responsibility to just ignore the ever-accumulating pile of plastic in my bits box in the interest of supporting my LGS and the hobby as a whole, or do I cheat a bit and at least make use of those extra bits and save myself some money doing so? What is the general consensus among the crowd for a situation like this? Would I be booed off the stage at game night for it? 

[DisruptiveConduct]

you can donate all thise bits to the bin at the clubhouse and be free of them!

[Dark Trainer]

Recently my LGS asked a player to stop coming because he was 3d printing HUGE amounts of his army. As in, 3d printing most of a knight, more than 50% of a marine, etc. That seems like a fair ask really. At some point the model becomes a proxy, and is not a valid model. That said, no one has ever balked at kit bashing a model, but this tends to be a slippery slope. The rule our LGS went with was 70% legit pieces, or special conversion reasoning. Replacing shoulder pads, and such no one cared about. The torso & legs, I could see an issue there for an LGS. You could always ask (or beg forgiveness later, but it would be too late if you already assembled everything). For the record, 2nd hand marines are CHEAP (got over 2300 points worth of troops, vehicles, everything for like $100)! You should be able to get what's needed without 3d printing 'most' of marines. Other armies not as much.

While personally, i don't care. It's about where you're playing in my opinion.

At Ordo, no one at the clubhouse is going to care in a friendly game (speaking for myself anyway). If at a tournament, I suppose it would depend on proxy rules. 

[Ish]

For me, it's not something you can really quantify in terms of percentages of a specific figure. I mean... How do you even measure that? By part count? By weight? It's too uncertain.

I'd just go with the equally as subjective, but somewhat easier to quantify rule of "Don't be That Guy." 

Treat your 3D Printer the same way you would treat product from a third-party vendor, like Anvil Industry or Spellcrow. If you walked into a Games Workshop store or an independent retailer, like Guardian, with a Imperial Guard army that had custom Spellcrow helmets and shoulder pads on every model... No one would bat an eye; Show up to the same location with every Imperial Guardsman was a complete Anvil Industry's Trench Fighter figure... You're on shakier ground. It's probably okay in an independent shop, it's not really okay in a "we only sell products from one company" corporate store. 

Independent retailers, like Guardian Games and The Portland Game Store, should be supported by people who patronize them. I'm not saying you need to buy 100% of your stuff off their shelves, but you should at least try to buy enough stuff (with decent profit margins) that they can keep the lights on, pay their friendly staff, and pay their rent. Buy some snacks, buy some paint, buy a rulebook... and don't be That Guy.

(Also, if you're really feeling that owning a 3D printer is an ethical strain that your own personal morality cannot bear, I will do my duty as a friend to help you ease you conscious... I can pick it up Sunday.)

[scottshoemaker]

Here's my opinion:

Pros:

Money is tight, stretch the parts out

Eco-responsibility

Ability to create custom parts that don't exist

Ability to create custom models that don't exist

 

Cons:

Copyright infringement

Advantage over those without a printer ($ savings)

Initial startup costs for said printer

 

Considerations:

Printing for personal use vs. printing to sell (assuming infringing material)

FLGS vs private/club environment

Is it any different than getting free/discounted models

Is it any different than building your own models (bits/sculpting)

Once painted, can anybody tell?

Don't ask, don't tell?

[Torg]

I guess as the others have said.  It depends on where you play. I’ve seen 99% proxy armies played at OFCC. And at that point what’s the difference between a proxy and a 3d printed mini if most of it isn’t from GW?  
 

I guess if your going to be 3d printing parts - I’d try not to make them FW knockoffs and more of a custom- proxy feel. 
 

 

[Torg]

What if it’s something discontinued... like squats (yes I said it).  ... 3d printing bodies and adding GW weapons and bits ... 

is that the same thing as a proxy?  Or before recently... a sisters army?

[Ish]

12 minutes ago, Torg said:

I guess as the others have said.  It depends on where you play. I’ve seen 99% proxy armies played at OFCC. And at that point what’s the difference between a proxy and a 3d printed mini if most of it isn’t from GW?

How would you feel about someone showing up to play Warhammer 40,000 using nothing but (or mostly) the Wargames Factory Shock Troops? Wargames Atlantic Les Grognards? How about someone playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Age of Sigmar using Oathmark Dwarves? Fireforge Games Teutonic Knights?

Personally, as long as the models are distinctly different from the "official" ones and there isn't any intent to deceive, then it's not piracy. It's proxy.

Printing a direct copy of a Citadel Miniatures or Forge World model and trying to pass it off as the real thing is distasteful. 

Quote

What if it’s something discontinued... like squats (yes I said it).  ... 3d printing bodies and adding GW weapons and bits ... 

Again, I have to say I feel it comes down to intent. There's a line between "Hey, remember this rare model from the Eighties? I made something just like it!" and "Hey, remember this rare model from the Eighties? Well, I just so happen to have one. Aren't I cool?" And a four-lane superhighway thick line between that and saying "Hey, remember this rare model from the Eighties? Well, I can sell you one for $$$."

 

[generalripphook]

As long as you don't sell them, I say go for it. 

[Torg]

I was thinking about this last night again ... what about terrain?  GW sells terrain specific for its games / IP.  
what does printing 3D terrain that matches the same “look and feel” mean?   
 

I don’t see an issue - but it’s in the same vein

[Ish]

I think it’s telling that everyone’s looking at this from the perspective of “What does 3D Printing do to Games Workshop?” 

[Dark Trainer]

Interesting question on terrain. I'd say that's a non issue as that can apply to 'any' game and is less brand controlled. However, good question if your intent is to COPY a terrain model and break infringement. Again depends on where, who, etc.

Ish makes a good point. I think it's less about impacting GW, and more about keeping our LGS's afloat. Personally couldn't care about GW's bottom line.

[Ish]

If you 3D print “ruined buildings” that’s a lot different than doing a print of an exact replica of “Pegasus Hobbies #4930 Gothic Ruins...

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

I am in support of "you bought it, it's yours" and if you want to make copies of the sprue for personal use, awesome!  Legs, torso, shoulder pad, Imperial Knight, IDGAF.  If you are trying to sell it as a FW/GW model, it's a problem.  

 

Didn't GW used to have a 51% rule? More than half the model had to be GW bits.  

 

As for Terrain, gw doesn't own "Gothic Medieval" any more than they own Space Elves or Space Marines.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

There are 3d printed Warhounds running around in my neck of the woods, as well as thunderfire cannons.  Actually, that is where I feel problematic about it.  When someone starts printing GW Models of Net lists for tourney play.  If they printed custom sculpted guys, or unique proxy Thunderfire Cannons, I'd feel different.

[InfestedKerrigan]

 

[scottshoemaker]

Technically the Giant Space Marine is IP Infringement, even if it is sculpted from "scratch".  If it was a one off, it wouldn't even be in the discussion, however the STL files are available, so those files are infringing. Is it enough to worry about if we all printed it out and put it on our shelf, probably not, but if I were to print 100 of them and sell them, well that's IP theft.

It's a slippery slope for sure.

If I were to download those files for research purposes, well then how grey am I?

These are tough questions in our society today, and should be addressed.  

What if Games Company that was the world leader in model sales started selling STLs at 1/5th the cost of the model? Certainly the margin is better, the end quality is potentially not as good (yet), and can be intentionally marked as such (different poses would be easy way).  It's should be something that any firm that manufactures anything should be considering.

[WestRider]

Not 100% on topic, but I'm seeing "proxy" mis-used significantly here. A Proxy is a Model that is totally different from the original. What I see here is Counts As. If you put down a Space Marine and say "Sorry, I ran out of dudes, that's actually a Guardsman", that's a Proxy. If you bring in a squad of dudes who are still pretty clearly lightly-armoured humans armed with something more or less equivalent to an assault rifle (Autogun. Same Statline in 40K as a Lasgun), that's Counts As.

See Pretre's sig for more examples 😉

[Ish]

23 minutes ago, scottshoemaker said:

Technically the Giant Space Marine is IP Infringement, even if it is sculpted from "scratch".  If it was a one off, it wouldn't even be in the discussion, however the STL files are available, so those files are infringing. Is it enough to worry about if we all printed it out and put it on our shelf, probably not, but if I were to print 100 of them and sell them, well that's IP theft.

It's a violation of IP laws whether you only plop one of them on your bookshelf or you print a hundred of them to sell... The only difference is that one of those activities is far more likely to attract attention than the other. 

[scottshoemaker]

19 hours ago, Ish said:

It's a violation of IP laws whether you only plop one of them on your bookshelf or you print a hundred of them to sell... The only difference is that one of those activities is far more likely to attract attention than the other. 

The file is infringing.  The act of doing something with the file is theft.

The wrinkle is fan art and fair use.  It can be argued that the STL file is fan art, and thus derivative, which is legal.

My experience is more about copyright from my photography, so when it comes to  something more tangable, I'll admit I'm lacking.  It does become interesting when you have this issue of art as a commercial product. Just a few years ago GW corporate declared that their products were for collectors, with the gaming aspect being secondary, thus implying that they are art, like plates or dolls.  If I were to paint a plate that was inspired by a franklin mint plate, is that infringing? I can't say

[Guest]

For me, I think the ethics depends on whether you'd be buying it or not, had the 3d printer not been present.

If you'd normally buy models and are now 3d printing, you are taking money away from the model sellers. And that's fine as long as your goal is essentially to boycott model sellers. In this capacity, what is being done is not really art, but imitation or forgery, since you are using something cheap to stand in for something expensive in a direct attempt to not pay a higher price. Like a fake Rolex watch - it's an imitation that takes money away from the companies that sell the real thing.

On the other hand, if you'd be otherwise making your own models from scratch, then 3d printing doesn't strike me as any different than using putty or converting up non-models into models or using an alternative model to represent another model. It's an alternative artistic medium. If you wouldn't be buying it anyway, then you aren't taking money away from anyone. And even with 3d printing, the medium is not without it's own costs.

 

I think this is just a personal question that you ask yourself, not something you look for validation in others. Art is one of those things where some things are art and near identical things may not be art, and it's about how the creator views the project. Personally, I tend to think it's basically a matter of goals. Art is supposed to be art. Non-art is designed with a more specific goal, usually a financial one (like the best product for the least cost). Though there's always exceptions and definitely things overlap.

[Sgt. Rock]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

I think this is just a personal question that you ask yourself, not something you look for validation in others.\

This is pretty much the end result, yeah. But I wanted to get input from other people in the community, get their ideas and opinions. Ours is a cooperative hobby; if I were sitting here playing silly bugger by myself, I wouldn't think twice. But I have other people to consider. How would the owner of the LGS feel? How would my opponent feel, who may not have access to a printer? How am I affecting the company who makes the models specifically, and the hobby as a whole? In the end, I think I may do up a few here and there, but sparingly, or to make the odd custom model. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

This is pretty much the end result, yeah. But I wanted to get input from other people in the community, get their ideas and opinions. Ours is a cooperative hobby; if I were sitting here playing silly bugger by myself, I wouldn't think twice. But I have other people to consider. How would the owner of the LGS feel? How would my opponent feel, who may not have access to a printer? How am I affecting the company who makes the models specifically, and the hobby as a whole? In the end, I think I may do up a few here and there, but sparingly, or to make the odd custom model. 

Owner of the LGS is something I am not, but I think it would be a person by person thing. Someone that is "poisoning" your crop of gamers with the idea of buying at places other than the LGS is probably someone you should kick out if they get too preachy about it. It's not a matter of them getting their models elsewhere, it's when they are discouraging other customers from buying at the store, that's just poisonous for a LGS. But there's nothing innately wrong with 3d printing or buying from models from other stores from the LGS's owner's perspective, provide they're still making money, it's just when it becomes more than just one person and no one is buying the local stock. And that's not just 3d printing, buying from other stores is the same problem.

As for the opponent, it's no different than with heavy conversions or proxies. Are you making them feel bad for paying retail? Are you proselytizing 3d printed armies to players without 3d printers? Those are the main ones. Beyond that, does your army look like it's made with love? It's much more fun to play against a loved army that happens to be heavily converted/3d printed than it is to play against an emotionless, bland army, that someone just put together to meet the game's criteria for playing.

How are you affecting the company buy not buying their stuff? You are boycotting their products. They'll see this as you disliking their current products and will either change their product to compensate or they will stop producing them. If that's okay for you, then no problem.

[Sgt. Rock]

And the thing is, I'm not even boycotting GW's products. I still intend to buy kits from them (once I have the money to do so.) I just have a bunch of spare bits laying around that I'm not going to use (and honestly, does the Ordo bits bin REALLY need a bag of a dozen bolters?) and I could use a few more tactical marines. I'm not going to try to pass them off as anything more than that, or even that they're the legit thing. I just want to be able to make use of those melta guns or bolters or chainswords or whatever that are sitting there gathering dust. I'm not printing units wholesale, and I'm not going to stop spending money at the LGS. I just want to reinforce the troops a bit and make use of some waste plastic.

[Ish]

Hence my original assessment of “Don’t be That Guy.”

Almost all canons of ethics essentially boil down to social mores and norms for interacting with other people. If one man all by himself was the sole sapient being on Earth, he wouldn’t need ethics. Ethics are how we silly, talking, hairless upright monkeys have learned to get along with the rest of the talking monkeys. 

Hobby games are a social event, more so than a competitive one. Be a good sport, be someone other people want to spend time with, don’t be a dick. That’s what matters.