SPaceORK

So based off what you have available to you with the units you listed, I think you can make a fluffy and competitive list like this one; ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [76 PL, 1300pts] ++ Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 108pts]: Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Laser Lance, Shimmerplume of Achillrial, Twin Shuriken Catapult Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 135pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade + Troops + Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender GuardianDefenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender + Fast Attack + Vypers [12 PL, 225pts] . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult . Vyper: Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult + Heavy Support + Fire Prism [9 PL, 165pts]: Shuriken Cannon + Dedicated Transport + Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines Wave Serpent [9 PL, 139pts]: Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Vectored Engines ++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [36 PL, 697pts] ++ CraftworldAttribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ + Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade + Fast Attack + Shining Spears [14 PL, 281pts] . 8x Shining Spear: 8x Laser Lance, 8x Twin Shuriken Catapult . Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult Windriders [4 PL, 84pts] . 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser Windriders [4 PL, 84pts] . 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser Windriders [4 PL, 69pts] . 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 3x Twin Shuriken Catapult Windriders [4 PL, 69pts] . 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 3x Twin Shuriken Catapult ++ Total: [112 PL, 1997pts] ++ Almost everything has the fly rule and ridiculous movement. Plenty of pychic powers, tons of "rending" and s6 shooting. It's got anti-tank with the vipers and fire prism. A decent amount of close combat with the Autarch and shining Spears. And it has what all Saim Hann armies need. Tons of bikes!

I've read it like twice! Three times today!

I think its definitely 1 or 3. I'm actually inclined to think its 3.

So... the eldar. Well it went ok. My shooting was poor as to be expected. However Slamguinius was a boss. Hitting on 3+, rerolling 1's with 5+D3 s8 attacks, and +1 to wound and a 3d6, rerollable charge, no overwatch. He is a hammer shaped scalpel that tears through planes or really anything. Except hordes, but thats what the guard is for. I still lost, but i stacked the deck against me, and it was closer than I could have hoped for. With some more games it should be a far better match-up. Thinking about tweaking the eldar list to add Dark Eldar just for the "counter-spell" stratagem. Shutting down even one of Slamguinius's stratagems could take him from all star to mediocre very quickly. Next up is the Knight + Guard list that has been running around, except for one big knight, I've decided to try 3 medium knights. I've been playing the Gallant for a couple weeks now and a turn one charging suicide knight is a terrifying. It usually kills a ton of things then explodes on a 4+ if you want. So with three Hawkshroud knights, while I'm not going to get the first turn charge with all three, they should survive to make it to the opponents lines. And three Gallants hitting anyone's line is... well devastating. Add in a Catachan brigade to do everything else and this should be a interesting "Mirror" match. ++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [56 PL, 937pts] ++ Regimental Doctrine: Catachan + HQ [8 PL, 151pts] + Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken [4 PL, 75pts] Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave [8pts], Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier + Troops [18 PL, 312pts] + Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts] . 6x Guardsman [24pts] Guardsmen W/ Speacial Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol + Elites [6 PL, 121pts] + Astropath [1 PL, 36pts]: Nightshroud, Telepathica Stave [6pts] Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol Sergeant Harker [3 PL, 50pts] + Fast Attack [15 PL, 254pts] + Hellhounds [6 PL, 101pts] . Hellhound [6 PL, 101pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon [20pts] Hellhounds [6 PL, 101pts] . Hellhound [6 PL, 101pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon [20pts] Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts] . Scout Sentinel [3 PL, 52pts]: Heavy Flamer [17pts] + Heavy Support [9 PL, 99pts] + Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] ++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [60 PL, 1062pts] ++ Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 2 Extra Warlord Traits (-3CP) Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP) Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis + Lord of War [60 PL, 1062pts] + Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber [4pts], Reaper chainsword [30pts], Thunderstrike gauntlet [35pts] . Character: Exalted Court Member, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber [4pts], Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Reaper chainsword [30pts], Thunderstrike gauntlet [35pts] . Character: Exalted Court Member Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber [4pts], Reaper chainsword [30pts], Thunderstrike gauntlet [35pts] . Character: Warlord, Warlord Trait: Landstrider ++ Total: [116 PL, 1999pts] ++

Overall, I don't know. I would guess the more restrictive rule applies? In your example I would say the fallen rule applies and stops the warlord trait. Take moral. Fail, 1 guy runs. Warlord trait kicks in, 2 models flee. Fallen rules kicks in, says only one flees.

Are we talking about the highly dangerous "whippy sticks"? Or did no one else do that?

I will grab some pic asap! Currently worried about the forest fire next to my house but will get those to you!

I played super tanky lists in 6th & 7th so I always went second to have last chance at objectives. I do feel that going second in 8th is a slight disadvantage most of the time. But you guys are correct... I will adjust as I play, but I do want to play from a bad position most of the time, so when I'm in that position (which I will be alot) there is no panic.

The first opponent to enter the Thunderdome! While I'm sure this list isn't optimized what it does do is give -2 to hit to almost everything. Which for a bunch of Guardsmen, realllly sucks. I also don't really get to move where I want because the flyers can easily box me out of zones. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [42 PL, 755pts] ++ Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft + HQ [12 PL, 227pts] + Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 117pts]: 4: Fate's Messenger, Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Fusion Pistol [9pts], Laser Lance [8pts], Shimmerplume of Achillrial, Twin Shuriken Catapult [5pts] Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade + Troops [12 PL, 240pts] + Dire Avengers [3 PL, 60pts] . 5x Dire Avenger [60pts]: 5x Avenger Shuriken Catapult [20pts] Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger [60pts] Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger [60pts] Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger [60pts] + Dedicated Transport [18 PL, 288pts] + Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Twin Shuriken Cannon [17pts], Vectored Engines [10pts] Wave Serpent [9 PL, 144pts]: Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Twin Shuriken Cannon [17pts], Vectored Engines [10pts] ++ Patrol Detachment (Aeldari - Ynnari) [26 PL, 493pts] ++ Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host + HQ [7 PL, 132pts] + Yvraine [7 PL, 132pts] + Troops [5 PL, 80pts] + Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 80pts]: 10x Guardian Defender [80pts] + Fast Attack [14 PL, 281pts] + Shining Spears [14 PL, 281pts] . 8x Shining Spear [248pts]: 8x Laser Lance [64pts], 8x Twin Shuriken Catapult [40pts] . Shining Spear Exarch [33pts]: Star Lance [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult [5pts] ++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [36 PL, 740pts] ++ Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft + Flyer [36 PL, 740pts] + Crimson Hunter [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Bright Lance [40pts] Crimson Hunter [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Bright Lance [40pts] Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: Spirit Stones [10pts] Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: Spirit Stones [10pts] ++ Total: [104 PL, 1988pts] ++

So in order to better prepare for what I hope will be tournament filled next 12 months I've decided to create the Thunderdome! Thunderdome is just going to be a bunch of lists using armies I already own, with some proxies here and there, to playtest against. After deciding which lists make the cut to playtest against, I will play a bunch of games with whatever list I'm currently playing. Now, duh! That just sounds like a solid plan to get better! Well yea, but I've decided to add a twist. I mean Max didn't really have a fair chance against Blaster. So in addition to whatever lists I decide to play against, I'm always going to go second, which in this edition, is basically playing from behind a good chunk of the time. No seizing the initiative either. A 16% chance to go first isn't reliable enough to actually throw into the equation. In addition to that, I'm going to have my opponent adjust their dice rolls. Roll D6 for battle-cannon shots and roll a 1? No, take a 3. Smash me with a demon prince but manage to roll 3 1's even after the reroll? No, you would hit 7 times normally, take the 7 hits. Roll 4 for a smite? That looks like a 5 to me... Basically I want to remove all the low numbers cause , while it happens, rolling low doesn't happen to a player who is on his way to winning a tournament. Variance is usually on their side. And the reverse will go for me. I roll 6 for the number of battle cannon shots, nope, a 3. I roll 12 for a smite? Nope treat it as d3 mortal wounds. Now I'm not going to do that as frequently as I would for my opponent because you do need some luck in games and that will basically be during the first couple turns. This should get me used to playing from a behind position and force better gameplay in order to win. I'm a pretty loose player and I feel I need to tighten my play up. Now for the Max to my Thunderdome. The list I currently like is a Catachan/Blood Angels. Obviously this can change between now and the Guardian Cup (The main tournament I plan on attending) but I don't anticipate any nerfs to any of the units so I should be good. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [24 PL, 423pts] ++ Slamguinius (Captain) [6 PL, 129pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack [1 PL, 19pts], Storm shield [15pts], The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer [21pts], Warlord Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 19pts], Storm shield [15pts], The Veritas Vitae, Thunder hammer [21pts] Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] ++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [88 PL, 1495pts] ++ Regimental Doctrine: Catachan Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken [4 PL, 75pts] Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave [8pts], Psychic Barrier Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts] . 7x Guardsman [28pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts] . 7x Guardsman [28pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts] . 7x Guardsman [28pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [13pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 47pts] . 8x Guardsman [32pts] . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 47pts] . 8x Guardsman [32pts] . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol Infantry Squad [3 PL, 47pts] . 8x Guardsman [32pts] . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon [11pts]: Plasma gun [7pts] . Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol + Elites [25 PL, 503pts] + Astropath [1 PL, 36pts]: Nightshroud, Telepathica Stave [6pts] Bullgryns [19 PL, 378pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] . Bullgryn Bone 'ead [42pts]: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul [7pts] Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 39pts]: Laspistol, Power maul [4pts] Sergeant Harker [3 PL, 50pts] + Fast Attack [9 PL, 156pts] + Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts] . Scout Sentinel [3 PL, 52pts]: Heavy Flamer [17pts] Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts] . Scout Sentinel [3 PL, 52pts]: Heavy Flamer [17pts] Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts] . Scout Sentinel [3 PL, 52pts]: Heavy Flamer [17pts] + Heavy Support [17 PL, 249pts] + Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts] . Basilisk [7 PL, 108pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts] Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts] . Basilisk [7 PL, 108pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts] Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] . Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts] + Flyer [11 PL, 160pts] + Vulture Gunship [11 PL, 160pts] . Vulture Gunship [11 PL, 160pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts], Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons [40pts] ++ Total: [112 PL, 1918pts] ++ So the list is a brigade of Catachan to both make both Slamguinius function at full strength and have the Bullgryn have that sweet 2++ invulnerable save all game. Plenty of troops that can be very good in melee if need be thanks to being Catachan. Harker to buff the artillery. And a Vulture to clear screens. It seems like a solid plan but I guess the Thunderdome will decide that. I also have 80+ points to play around with but I don't really know what to add.

Well you can close your eyes and randomly pick a unit in the codex and 9 out 10 times it will be a decent unit. Saim Hann is nice! You have a excellent stratagems when combined with shining Spears. Farseers on bikes is also an great choice to support the shining Spears. A aoutoch (eldar capt?) On a bike with a certain relic is an amazing scalpel to murder units. Wave serpents are great for all kind of jobs. Like literally everything. Both versions of the Jets are also superb. Basically, some troops in wave serpents, 2 x farseers on bikes, a unit of 9 shining Spears, a couple units if regular bikes, a couple planes is a absolutely awesome core to a saim hann army. Not completely skewed toward competitive play, but also not a list that will roll over to a stiff breeze.

If set up in a line, 2 inchs apart, it's a box 18"x 120" of no deepstrike.

I...I put all of that in the above list. Because it is good. However, ignore the upgrade part for cultists. The idea is they are 4 points per wound. Which is great. It's the reason guard is good too. 3 points for a model (looking at you conscripts) with a guardsmen profile is to good. Why 40 cultists for 160 over 20 marines for 260? Well all the buffs that apply to cultist also apply to marines so it's a draw there. Marines also can have better weapons, but at the cost of making the unit ridiculously priced, so thats not the way you wanna go. Marines, while more durable with a 3+ save, cost waaay more per wound than cultists, so you don't wanna just use the as a screen. Basically it come down to this. You want your army to be able to handle most threats, but you don't want your units in the army to be able to handle most threats. Marines are "good" as a unit that can do something to most units and be durable against most things. But they are not great at anything. Want a screening unit? Cultists, plaguebearers, brims, nurglings. Want something anti tank? Havocs, oblits, dreads. Want something anti infantry? Pinks, beszerkers. And all of those units are great at something while being ok at something else, adding to the redundancy of a list. What you don't want is something that is mediocre at all things. Which marines are... Now if CSM cost like 9-11 points? That would be a different story... Then their price per wound would be low enough that their 3+ would matter, their upgrades would be ok to add. Currently, for all forms of marines, your paying for a bunch of rules and wargear that isn't really relevant.

Oh... That's sexy... Ehh killing 5 more isn't that hard, but I can see your concern. I say warriors, destroyers, immortals. Fill the rest with buffing characters and roll out. For purely fluff reasons I say a Nightbringer & Monolith just because they are the iconic big necron units.

Reanimation protocols is at begining of turn. Roll a dice for each dead robot. On a 5+ they stand back up. You don't count losses do to moral. You can only roll for models if at least 1 model remains in the unit. So if you kill 15 out of 20 they auto fail moral and the whole squad is dead. Yes, they can auto pass one unit, and that unit will get 5 back on average. My point is, one shouldn't feel bad for even having 80 warriors let alone only 40. It's a fluffy thing to have a bunch of them. Also you would shoot the scary necrons first (like the ones wearing people skin suits), because warriors are essentially slow space marines with no gear. Target priority and all...

Ok so... 20 warriors really isn't that hard to kill? I think there was an entire thread here about how easy it actually was to do. Kill 15 dudes, watch the rest melt. And even the most causal of list shouldn't have a problem killing 15x2 T4, 3+, 1 wound models. Also since reanimation protocols ( is it still called that?) only triggers if the unit survived and units that died to moral don't come back ,it really not as amazing as I think it should be when I think of a reanimating tide of zombie robots. Yes, horde is very good. But its only really a horde if you started with the models on the table, relying on a trick to bring models back when it has a inbuilt weakness, doesn't make a horde. Yes I think a knight list would be very tricky to kill. You just don't have enough antitank in the list. All that being said, your first list is super awesome, easy to play, good against not tanks. I also think it would just look awesome and be fun to play against. Isn't that what Ordo should be about?

So I tried to make a list that makes use of the IW tactics, uses models you already own, can easily convert or already plan to acquire while still being able to deal with eldar tricks, kill a knight or a unit of 30 infantry in a turn. Between the CSM, cultists, oblits, and dreadnought you should have to worry about anything lurking in cover. The princes hide behind the pinks and cultists for a bit, until they are assured a charge, then jam them into your enemies lines. Which hopefully the oblits, scorpious, missile launchers, dread, smites and pinks have softened up. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [74 PL, 1311pts] ++ Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon [10pts] . Slaanesh: Diabolic Strength Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon [10pts] . Slaanesh: Warptime So Fly, a bunch of attacks, ws 2+ and rerolling 1's, strength 8-9. These guys should have no problem with dealing with those pesky Eldar flyers, or really anything else you want to throw them at. Plus they are wizards so they should help with denying those ridiculously useful Eldar powers, making killing them even easier. They are especially "durable" considering the 30 cultists and 30 pinks that will be screening for them on the first couple turns. Also you get some splash utility from most things in the list being slaanesh, so the princes will grant rerolls of 1. Warpsmith [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer [9pts], Meltagun [17pts], No Chaos Mark, Power axe [5pts] This gentleman is here cause you like him and he can be the medic for fragile vehicles. So he should spend most of his time repairing and occasionally defending the back lines. Plus a random Melta can be very useful. Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 120pts]: 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [116pts], Mark of Slaanesh . Cultist Champion [4pts]: Autogun Cultists! Here to die, so your good stuff gets to keep on killing. Move + advance should be the name of the game for the first couple turns. Make them fearless via the stratagem if you feel moral would kill off the unit, so you can tide of traitors them back the next turn. Basically they are here to provide 30-60 extra wounds to your demon princes. And with your demon princes following close behind, they should be able to help put a dent in some screens. So with tide of traitors, only one cultist need survive. So ideally, the enemy would kill 29 cultists, make them fearless, tide them back in the opponents deployment zone, and continue "screening" (remember they need to be closer to the enemy if you wish for them to continue dying for the demon princes). Whatever you kill with them or tie up in cc is a bonus! Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [39pts] . Marine w/ heavy weapon [38pts]: Missile launcher [25pts] Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [39pts] . Marine w/ heavy weapon [38pts]: Missile launcher [25pts] Now these guys are here to hide in ruins and take pop shots at anything that may come into the range of their guns. With a missile launcher in each squad, you can also reach out and touch some troops or a tank if need be. Also the flakk strat will be helpful against flyers or things with fly (which is a ton of things). Also they are troops so they are going to hold those backfield objectives for you. Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 163pts] . Left Arm [30pts]: Butcher cannon [30pts] . Right Arm [30pts]: Butcher cannon [30pts] Oh my, I didn't know this guy was a thing. I thought it was only the leviathan that got dual butcher cannons. Butcher cannons are awesome, especially on a bs 2+ model. 36", 8 shots at 8/-1/2 is going to put a hurt on everything from Primaris marines to tanks. Now it is far more fragile than the leviathan but its also like half the cost. And if he doesn't die outright you have your warp smith hanging around to bring him up a damage tier. Hellforged Scorpius [12 PL, 217pts]: Combi-bolter [2pts], Scorpius multi-launcher [40pts] Your other back field murder vehicle, along with the dreadnought. This thing can basically hurt anything. 48", no los needed, bs 3+, 6d3 6/-2/2 shots if it didn't move. Such a good profile for dealing with almost any threat. Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator [195pts] Good ol' obliterators. Deepstrike these guys in turn 2 next to one of your demon princes, pop the slaanesh double tap strat, and watch as you melt almost anything with 24, bs 3+, rerolling 1's, a minimum of s7/-1/1 shots. On average it should be s8/-2/2 which is awesome. Now don't expect to shoot more than 2-3 times with these guys cause they will be murdered as quickly as possible. ++ Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons) [25 PL, 468pts] ++ Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch Changecaster [4 PL, 78pts]: Flickering Flames This guy is here solely to give the pinks +1 strength (its command aura) and +1 to wound ( via flickering frames power) to their shooting attacks. Also another source of denial if need be. Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon [10pts], Wings [1 PL, 24pts] . Tzeentch: Infernal Gateway Same strategy here as the other two princes, except he goes with the pinks. Hide him behind the pinks for two turns until you can make a charge, then go forth and murder. Just as planned. Horrors [12 PL, 210pts]: 30x Pink Horror [210pts] How I like these guys. 4++ on a screening unit is already beautiful. Combine that with 90 bolter shots at bs3+, rerolling 1's and +1 to wound. They will put damage on anything you point them at. ++ Total: [99 PL, 1779pts] ++ Now this list only has 8 cp and between the double tap strat, tide of traitors and fearless strat your going to burn though 6 in the first turn. So your going to have to be careful with the final two.

I mean, isn't that basically what Necrons do? Get back up alot?

I have a feeling I will own a unit from almost every army cause of this game...

Umm this is still going? Cause I still have a tomb kings army that I still haven't looked at in, well 6 years now. If anyone wants it, it can go very cheaply. I 'd rather it have a good home than sit on a shelf for eternity.

Ok... Well for starters, I'm not trying to trade you some servitors that have been sitting in my bitz box for a decade. They will be coming along in the package I send out later. Second, you have been really using cultists wrong or at least evaluating them wrong. Yes, they have bad saves, fail moral often, etc. But why are they good then? Well they come in 40 man blobs for 120 points. That in itself makes them extremely useful. 120 points for a screen to protect your entire army turn one? Yes please! Add in the nerfed Tide of Traitors strat and thats basically 80 cultists for 120 points and 2cp! OkOk, but they don't do anything on offense. Well they have a 4+ bs/ws with autoguns so already on guardsmen level (which is one of the best units in the game?). Sure they are only going to kill other infantry but thats ok, them other dudes need to die. Add in mark of slaanesh and suddenly your 40 man unit with auto guns is pumping out 120 lasgun shots. Thats 20 wounds on anything with t4-5, which is alot of things. Want them to deepstrike? Alpha legion. What them to be choppy in close combat? World Eaters and close combat weapons. But they only wear t-shirts for armor! Yea thats ok though. If you want tanky cultists, make them Alpha Legion and Mark of Slaanesh for -1 to hit and FNP. But they fail moral tests! So? They are first and foremost screens for your important stuff. They just have the ability to be tanky, shooty or choppy depending on your needs, all without character support. But as you said the IW trait is awesome for keeping them around and only one needs to survive for tide of traitors to work. There is also the book stratagem and Abbadon for fearless. Add in character support (which is no big deal because your characters are doing other things than just buffing cultists) and suddenly you have a 40 man unit of cultist with 3+ ws/bs, shooting or hitting twice a turn, rerolling 1's to hit with +1 to wound. The idea is to make your cultists scary with minimal effort so your stuff that actually needs to do things, dont die. There are things you shouldn't do with them though. Never take them in a squad of less than 30 unless you plan on hiding them all game behind some los blocking terrain. The bigger the blob, the more your individual buffs are multiplied across a unit and the greater chance of one of them surviving to Tide of Traitors the squad back. They should never be in a transport. They either move + advance to provide a screen. Or they are deepstruck via the AL strat. Also from a fluff perspective, CSM are rare. Cultists make up the bulk of a force for chaos. So a few CSM running around with a bunch of cultists to fall on chainswords for them is a very chaosy thing to do. You did mention other demon allies, specifically tzeentch pinks. Those are great, but you want the full squad of 30. It allows you to have the 20+ model bonus longer, which in this case changes their weapons to assault 3. The "take 30 rule" actually applies to all demon troops cause they all have bonuses for having 20+ models, which takes them from "meh" to great. Tl;DR: Cultists die, its their job, take 40. Pinks are good, take 30.

Umm... Can I ask why you were unimpressed? I think cultists are the best unit the entire CSM besides demon princes. I'm afraid they are gonna nerf them (they already have once). And I may have some more servitors for ya if that's what your using.

I actually really like the scorpious. Bs 3+, 6d3 6/0/2 shots at 48" without needing line of sight. I wrote a list with two in it cause I really like em. I even have your favorite... The warpsmith! He babysits them and heals any injuries. And yes, the warlord trait is nuts... Best one in the codex with combined with blobs of cultists. But you don't have 120 cultist to really make it shine. Even 40 + tide of traitors would be an excellent screening unit. Also double taping them with the slaanesh strat is no joke either. Do you have cultists? In my list building I'm keeping the list at at least 1001 points of IW so it is a majority IW list. Gonna run things by my group later today and see what we come up with.

Responses in bold. I'm going to think on a more IW type list, that still has the ability to get past those sneaky Eldar, while still being able to kill a knight in a turn or kill a 30 man cultist/conscript/boyz squad in a turn. I suppose I have some questions to see what my options are. Are you opposed to allies? And if your not would you prefer they be fluffy allies or is Slaanesh/Khorne ok? Is spamming a unit ok (You can have up to 15 demon princes in a list, not that I would do that. I only have 9 so I cant...)? Like are you opposed to 3 havoc squads? Is fw ok (I realize you would scratch build or kitbash. Dont you have a hellforged scorpios?)? Do you only have khorne demons? I like demons in a chaos list, and I reallllllly like Nurgle demons.

I don't think saying CSM are trash is an insult? Like I only have three ways to describe models; trash, good and op. Power armor in general is overpriced or lacking in some way or both. Like I can't make a dark eldar army that isn't garbage cause I only own garbage units. Stating one unit is better than another (albiet in a brash and abrasive way) is not indicative of your ability to make a list. Nor is it saying anything about your model choice. I wanted to try and make a list with the restraints of your personal preference and models available, but from an alternate point of view... Now I know you really want to optimize the the IW trait and possibly be even more fluffy but still be able to deal with eldar shenanigans. So even now I'm thinking of ways to do that and running the numbers in my head. Tl;DR: Brodude, you know I'm not insulting you on purpose, or I hope you know that. I'm very cut and dry in my unit/list evaluation and find it difficult to put fluff ahead of rules/model awesomeness.