OFCC 40K Team Event 2014

[DisruptiveConduct]

If the score doesn't matter, why have it at all? Why not do away with the scores entirely?

We have this discussion every year and every year we let the HOG determine how the event will be played. So if you want to see an OFCC Team event with no scoring at all, I highly encourage you to submit a purposal to us for next years OFCC Team event. We usually solicit for these in the winter.

[evil_bryan]

If the score doesn't matter, why have it at all? Why not do away with the scores entirely?

 

Fair question

 

We have discussed this, but feel that not everyone in the community would like to see this go away.

 

I think a good way to look at OFCC is:

 

Primary Objective: Have a great time

Secondary Objective: Be a good sport

Tertiary Objective: Win some games

 

Historically, we have promoted OFCC as "five great games." As an organization, we value sportsmanship above all else.

 

To speak to your concerns about evaluating a player and their list as a sportsmanship component, Joel and I had a lengthy discussion before this system was rolled out. Ordo as an organization must evaluate the player experience, as this correlates directly to our goals for the event. The methodology in separating the player from the list was to evaluate the opponent experience from the army match up. If we see negative responses to the willingness to play a person again, then event organizers will be following up to ensure there are no larger problems.  

[fluger]

Why not have the questionnaire, but not have it linked to any event scoring?  

 

So, for instance, you could ask all the same questions, but then not have it have any bearing on a teams Sportsmanship scores.  

I like the idea of having sportsmanship ranked solely on favorite opponent pins and the like, or a simply sheet at the end saying, which 3 opponents were your favorites.  That could link in to figuring out which team is the best sports (with battle score being the tie breaker) for the cherished prize, but also avoids specifically chipmunking a team.  

 

Whatever, I don't really care about this as even with all the hand wringing and endless pre and post event debates, OFCC continues to be my favorite weekend of gaming a year.  

[sergentzimm]

Why not have the questionnaire, but not have it linked to any event scoring?  

 

So, for instance, you could ask all the same questions, but then not have it have any bearing on a teams Sportsmanship scores.  

 

I like the idea of having sportsmanship ranked solely on favorite opponent pins and the like, or a simply sheet at the end saying, which 3 opponents were your favorites.  That could link in to figuring out which team is the best sports (with battle score being the tie breaker) for the cherished prize, but also avoids specifically chipmunking a team.  

 

Whatever, I don't really care about this as even with all the hand wringing and endless pre and post event debates, OFCC continues to be my favorite weekend of gaming a year.  

 

I like this system. Though it sounds like our conversations are for moot as the system has been selected and opinions on the matter are being brushed aside. 

[Mr.MoreTanks]

not to be too much of an ass (as it is kind of what I am known for  ), but I think I have to say this.

 

I really think that if you are concerned about the score you will get at OFCC, then you may not getting the purpose of the event.  

 

who cares about your score?  why?  does it matter?  are you trying to win something?  

 

The point of OFCC is to enjoy and celebrate all aspects of the game that you enjoy the most right?  So I like earning battle points, bringing ridiculous armies/units occasionally and being a good sport.  The care I have is my sportsmanship score being dinged and coming off like an [Clown] for bringing units to an event that I next to never get to use because others don't like them.  While at the end of the day I don't care too much about the other scores, I think we all agree on the significance of sportsmanship.  We always talk about how it's the most important one at OFCC.  That's all I'm really getting at. 

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

That is unfair to say that your opinions are being brushed aside. Opinions were shared at a point in time and decided as a whole if you fail to show up or become aware of it, is not fair for you to say you are being wronged. Nor is it a waste to share your opinion now.

 

Your comment is just like those who choose not sign up for draft because they don't want to be at risk to serve but wants to vote.

 

A decision had to be made at one point and it was. Share your opinions and now afterwards and then be proactive in next years process. Just know you are not going to change something that was already debated and decidemd.

[evil_bryan]

I like this system. Though it sounds like our conversations are for moot as the system has been selected and opinions on the matter are being brushed aside. 

 

Please don't think your opinion (or anyone else's) has no value in this process.

 

We are a community managed and community serving organization. Anyone is welcome to voice their thoughts publicly or privately.

 

If you have concerns, you are always welcome to contact me directly.

[Mr.MoreTanks]

I'd have to say that I think OFCC and the Ordo Senators do an outstanding job of trying to please everyone and make sure all voices are heard.

 

The sign of a good compromise is that no one leaves the table happy (or so they say).

 

I guess at the end of the day, I'm just wary of people becoming black sheep if they bring super heavies and silly units like that to OFCC when they are told it's not a serious event and to come have fun and bring whatever you want and then people get mad at them for bring said units and say they are poor sports.  I'm not worried that I won't have fun or won't win or lose, but I do care if people think I'm an [Clown] cause I only try to be that at work or school. 

[fluger]

Don't worry what other people think of you.  Only Dredd can judge you!

[Mr.MoreTanks]

Don't worry what other people think of you.  Only Dredd can judge you!

 

 

This is why I love you. 

[MauzDeadalive]

I feel I should share this with you Mr.MoreTanks and hope this helps calm your concern as I have been reading it.....

 

At my first and only OFCC (had a kid last year and had to take the year off but I will be back this year...finding a team willing) my team captain and the other team captain pulled me aside and asked my opinion about playing a list I had no chance of beating. I dare say it was almost as if the list were made just to destroy mine. The reason for the match up amounted to it was the only way they could see to not create 4 mismatched games. I was up for it and did not mind in the least. The only reason I had a model survive until the end was because of the wacky mission giving one of our HQ's the chance to respawn. It wound up being one of my favorite games simply because of the way my opponent played the game versus what he brought. We both had a blast. The main point here is that at no point in time did his list influence my opinion on his sportsmanship. What would have caused me to dislike the match up would have been things like him being overly confident in the match up or gloating the entire time. He definitely cheered and jeered himself on but it was never anything to make me feel bad. I will also tell you that I would not hesitate to bring a list I know I would enjoy playing regardless of what units are involved. I trust my captain to give me a fair and balanced match up and expect the LRC to ask me to tone it down if it winds up being problematic before the event even happens.

 

My two cents....take it or leave it!

[Mr.MoreTanks]

I feel I should share this with you Mr.MoreTanks and hope this helps calm your concern as I have been reading it.....

 

At my first and only OFCC (had a kid last year and had to take the year off but I will be back this year...finding a team willing) my team captain and the other team captain pulled me aside and asked my opinion about playing a list I had no chance of beating. I dare say it was almost as if the list were made just to destroy mine. The reason for the match up amounted to it was the only way they could see to not create 4 mismatched games. I was up for it and did not mind in the least. The only reason I had a model survive until the end was because of the wacky mission giving one of our HQ's the chance to respawn. It wound up being one of my favorite games simply because of the way my opponent played the game versus what he brought. We both had a blast. The main point here is that at no point in time did his list influence my opinion on his sportsmanship. What would have caused me to dislike the match up would have been things like him being overly confident in the match up or gloating the entire time. He definitely cheered and jeered himself on but it was never anything to make me feel bad. I will also tell you that I would not hesitate to bring a list I know I would enjoy playing regardless of what units are involved. I trust my captain to give me a fair and balanced match up and expect the LRC to ask me to tone it down if it winds up being problematic before the event even happens.

 

My two cents....take it or leave it!

 

 

This is a great story, and I know that that happens and I'm in no way doubting that there are more people like this than what I am worried about at OFCC.  

 

If I can count right (and most of my friends will tell you that that's a tall order for me) this will be my 5th OFCC, and every year I have a blast.  Last year was my first time not winning Best General, and it was one of my favorites.  

[fluger]

I think the vastly critical element of the OFCC is captain pairings.  This almost by itself makes the event almost guaranteed to be fun.  

 

I have been captaining (or handling matchups as co captain) for...uh...7 years now and I've never run into an opposing captain that I felt was intentionally trying to gimmick pairings to his team's advantage.  

 

As long as TEAMS are constructed with variety in mind, the games should be good.

[VonVilkee]

I think the vastly critical element of the OFCC is captain pairings.  This almost by itself makes the event almost guaranteed to be fun.  

 

I have been captaining (or handling matchups as co captain) for...uh...7 years now and I've never run into an opposing captain that I felt was intentionally trying to gimmick pairings to his team's advantage.  

 

As long as TEAMS are constructed with variety in mind, the games should be good.

On that note be prepared for a challenge from my team sir! I hear you have the Kirkman brothers and I haven't been able to play them myself in years!

 

That and I'm sick of challenging those east Washington degenerates :P

[fluger]

Perfect!  We accept!  

 

My team is going to be:

 

myself

Pumpkinhead

Romans832

PourSpelur

 

We're going with fairly solid lists operated by a bunch of casual gamers!  YAY!

[BigTal]

Let me try and address everyone's concerns.  2 points if your opponent would be willing to play your list again.  Like minded teams playing like minded teams we should have minimal scores like this.  If you bring a seerstar and play against a beaststar you are both bringing top level lists and should be prepared to see that type of list over the weekend.  If you bring a fluffy blood angel list and play one of these I would not be surprised to see this marked.  There is s responsibility by the captains to pair together players of like mindset, this doesn't always happen, and this gives another layer to make sure that occurs.  Your list will also affect your theme scores.  This will be rolled out in the next couple weeks.  If you see a team bring four lists that don't have any theme then yes your list will hurt your score overall.  Ben I don't think you will have anything to worry about as well as 99% of our players.  When sportsmanship scores are low I track them and research why this happened.  I talk to the players and figure out what occurred.  This is an invitational event and people do get uninvited or put on probation for poor behavior.  As for scoring sportsmanship I believe that there are different levels of game play and fun that occur during the weekend.  People should be rewarded for this just the same as paint points, battle points, etc.  Pass/Fail systems don't take this into account and most come with hard rules on when you can give a fail.  At the end of the day you know whether or not this event is right for you.  There is a reason the OFCC draws so many players from across the region and grows every year.  

[sergentzimm]

That is unfair to say that your opinions are being brushed aside. Opinions were shared at a point in time and decided as a whole if you fail to show up or become aware of it, is not fair for you to say you are being wronged. Nor is it a waste to share your opinion now.

 

Your comment is just like those who choose not sign up for draft because they don't want to be at risk to serve but wants to vote.

 

A decision had to be made at one point and it was. Share your opinions and now afterwards and then be proactive in next years process. Just know you are not going to change something that was already debated and decidemd.

I see that as being the same reason to not discuss it. If there is no chance of it changing then it's moot and time to move on.

[fluger]

A bunch of really well-thought out things.

Me:

[Lord Hanaur]

Intentions aside, how are they going to address the inevitable clash between 2 and 3 rated lists, that do well, against the 4's.  I'm still kinda waiting for that.  With an even number of lists in each strata, 24 teams(ish?) means 6 fours.  in three rounds the 3 win 4's must needs play the 3 win 3's or 2's.

 

Even the best captains are going to struggle if the 4's are sporting things like, YES, the Revenant and other like things.

 

Im trying to understand how this can be avoided at all.  Are teams going to feature a 1,2,3 and 4 list on every team?  but then there would be no 4 teams so i assume thats not whats happening?  I am kind of confused on how that part of it is going to be worked out.

[VonVilkee]

Submit and trust is my plan. The Ordo Senate and others involved have earned that from me :)

[AgentP]

I think one thing needs clarifying.  Just because there is no comp, and thus nothing is technically banned, that does not mean people are supposed to bring the biggest [bleep] list they can come up with.  The point of OFCC is for everyone to have fun.  The key to making that happen is to focus on other people's fun, not your own.  Every list, no matter how soft or strong, from a 1 to a 4, needs to be built asking yourself "Is this list going to be fun for others, or just for me?"  

If the only thing you're thinking about when building your list is how nasty it will be, and how much fun it will be to beat someone over the head with it, then I think you're at the wrong event.  Even strong lists can built to show something different, to give the opponent something new to see on the table, and to contribute to a fun enjoyable game for both players.  

 

If lists are built with other player's fun in mind, then the differences between 4 & 3, or 3 & 2 become marginal.  And late round games of a 4 vs 3 should still be fun for all concerned.  And ultimately, that fun - not winning - is the objective of the weekend.

[AbusePuppy]

I think one thing needs clarifying.  Just because there is no comp, and thus nothing is technically banned, that does not mean people are supposed to bring the biggest [bleep] list they can come up with.  The point of OFCC is for everyone to have fun.  The key to making that happen is to focus on other people's fun, not your own.

 

I thought the point of OFCC was to bring gamers of all kinds together. If "...but not your kind, you waac jerk idiot that i hate" is part of things, I think maybe the event is going in a very self-defeating direction.

 

People shouldn't be looking to ruin other players' fun, but "focus on other people's fun" feels like incredibly wrong-headed advice to me. Bring a list you will enjoy playing. Be a cool guy who plays good games. Join a team of folks you like. Let other people have their own fun- and hell, help them if you can- but it is not your, or my, or anyone's responsibility to make sure their opponent has fun. We should avoid being an obstacle to fun, but there is no list you can bring that will ensure- or even reasonably increase your chances- of other players automatically having fun playing you.

 

Some people want to play for best general. Some people want to play for best sports. Some people want to play for best painted. Some people don't give a [big bad swear word] about scores and just want to show up and get drunk with friends. All of these are perfectly fine ways to play the game, and no one should be freaking out about playing an "unfair list" any more than they should be unhappy coming up against an "unfair painter." I mean, I know that I have no realistic chance of getting Best Painter, and even scoring in the top 50% is probably not in the numbers given my skill level and the competition. Likewise, there are far too many well-known folks who have been attending OFCC for years now for me to stand any meaningful chance at winning Best Sportsman, but neither of these mean that I feel like I need to penalize other people for doing well in those categories.

 

Let folks play their game and have fun. Don't go looking for reasons to divide the hobby into Us and Them.

[Lord Hanaur]

Submit and trust is my plan. The Ordo Senate and others involved have earned that from me :)

I would never argue with the stated objective.  Most on the forum have been to these and know what was being attempted in previous years.

 

This is a very practical question though.

 

Let me give you a real example.  In the last OFCC if i recall, I played against: 

 

A Triple DreadKnight l+ Henchmen spam list w Forgeworld flyers and so on.

Two Mechdar lists right after the codex dropped.  

A full Beaststar with venom spam + WraithKnight,

Sanguinary Guard and IG essentially with ForgeWorld Weapons teams. 

 

Sound like a gauntlet?  It was.  Not one bad opponent amongst them, but some of them fully expected to beat me silly.

 

But can we be intellectually honest here?  My heavy support consisted of 3 Firesight Marksman and I played with Darkstrider for the love of Pete.  I did not bring three Riptides, there were no Broadsides at all, I did not bring an Aegis...  Would a newer guy to the OFCC perhaps enjoy that?  Even an intermediate?  Were those the matchups we're striving for?  I don't mind jumping on the grenade to make sure the rest of the team has a shot, and the Captains did their best to that end; but now a whole TEAM of grenade huggers and teams of grenade throwers?

 

OFCC has agreed to release the Kraken on the 4th and 5th rounds.  I think asking about how that would be handled is not asking a question the Senate hasn't already asked itself.  I'm just interested in what the answer was.

[AgentP]

I thought the point of OFCC was to bring gamers of all kinds together. If "...but not your kind, you waac jerk idiot that i hate" is part of things, I think maybe the event is going in a very self-defeating direction.

 

People shouldn't be looking to ruin other players' fun, but "focus on other people's fun" feels like incredibly wrong-headed advice to me. Bring a list you will enjoy playing. Be a cool guy who plays good games. Join a team of folks you like. Let other people have their own fun- and hell, help them if you can- but it is not your, or my, or anyone's responsibility to make sure their opponent has fun. We should avoid being an obstacle to fun, but there is no list you can bring that will ensure- or even reasonably increase your chances- of other players automatically having fun playing you.

 

 

 

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong.  What you're describing is exactly why the OFCC was created - to get away from that.  The point has never, ever, been to bring everyone together.  That's why it's invitational.  The entire point of the OFCC is to create a weekend free from the "WAAC jerk idiot"  A reaction to those people is what created the first one.

 

And no, it is exactly your responsibility to make sure your opponent has fun.  Again, that is the very heart of the OFCC.  The OFCC takes garage gaming into the convention setting.  When I go to my buddy's house, I'm there to have fun, and I want him to have fun.  And him having a good time is just as important as me having a good time.  That's what friends do.   The OFCC asks that you carry that same mindset into the convention hall.  Treat it like going to your friend's house for a game.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

There are lists out there that are in generalist way fun.

 

What I like to see in my games for fun:

No deathstars

bodies are being blown up by both sides

Heroic last stands, - might not be tactical move but it might work one out of hundred

In that spirit take more risks play the narrative

Allies that have a story and theme

 

My commitment to myopponent

All of the above

To help with narrative I plan to write out a short blurb as to how my army came to be and it's goals.

I will make a display board to reinforce this

 

Handing your opponent more than an army builder print. I remember an opponent that was like this and though I didn't play him it left quite the impression on me.

 

Among those lists not every point has to be hit to habe fun, but if at least an effort was made to evaluate your commitment to your opponent was made I would be happy. This doesn't have to be expressed, it will be known by the way you conduct yourself. If you bring screamerstar, I'm not going to make down your list if you give me a good reason why that list formed, fluffier the better. You bring with slow intent to win, it will get marked down.