Plastic Sisters for reals this time / Cadian Campaign / New Inquisitor? / Commoragh Game

[BrainFireBob]

I am actually going to expand on this: Fluffwise, I see it as the high lords forbade the Ecclesiasty from having men under arms, and the Ecclesiasty shrugging and saying "no loss, the women kick ass." To me, it's empowering because the Ecclesiasty is gender equal, in the grimdarkness of the grimdark. Sisters don't need support, and they'll do it in boobplate and heels because they're better than you.

 

Also, female gamers only want to play female characters, Sisters are the army for girls and those who support female equality-sentiment's sexist.

 

In my experience, girls prefer 'Nids anyway.

[Burk]

All this cis talk is making my head hurt.

 

Pew....pew.....ah i feel better.

[Guest]

You're also wrong in equating Marines and Sisters flatout. It's Guard that they are intended as equivalent to, not Marines. It's disingenuous to claim "but to an outsider, they're both in power armor". Outsiders don't know what power armor is, to make the comparison.

When describing 40k to "outsiders" power armor is not a foreign concept these days. The main difference, from a modeling stance, between guard and SM is the presence or lack of power armor. Sisters, from a game mechanic stance, are the army in between guard and SM. So no, they are not equal, but I was not suggesting sisters were "equal" to SM, that is my complaint.  

 

Also, female gamers only want to play female characters, Sisters are the army for girls and those who support female equality-sentiment's sexist.

Also not true. Females [gamer or otherwise] just want to be represented like the other humans of the setting. In 40k, human women are an alien race, functionally unique to a single army. They are a thematic army, like SW, they focus on a particular theme. For SW, that's the vikings and wolves. For sisters, their entire theme is being female... A gender should be more than just a thematic army concept. 

 

And regarding fluff, GW writes the fluff to sell models. They are very clear about their focus being selling models. I think they'd sell more models if they got some female representation in the SM and CSM factions. 

 

As an aside, the SM and CSM could just as easily stand for the Space MEN and Chaos Space MEN, with the way GW models them. 

[AbusePuppy]

Regarding T3 vs T4, I understand that's the fluff, but what I'm seeing is GW establishing that PA girls aren't as strong as PA men in the 40k universe.

 

I actually don't mind Sisters having a different statline in the game, either rules-wise or fluff-wise. They aren't WS3 S3 T3 because they're women, it's because they're human; Inquisitors have almost exactly the same statline, whether male or female, and so the implication is that while Power Armor makes you stronger than a normal human, it's not by enough to earn an actual stat bump (an idea that is supported by the FFG roleplaying games.) And actually you can buy Power Armor for your Acolytes in an Inquisitorial detachment as well, which remain S3 T3 models.

 

 

Also not true. Females [gamer or otherwise] just want to be represented like the other humans of the setting. In 40k, human women are an alien race, functionally unique to a single army. They are a thematic army, like SW, they focus on a particular theme. For SW, that's the vikings and wolves. For sisters, their entire theme is being female... A gender should be more than just a thematic army concept.

 

This is exactly my problem with it: "being women" is not a theme for an army. Female gamers- as well as minority gamers, etc- are often put off by the overt focus on masculinity in the game, and rightly so, because there is almost zero representation of them in the hobby. It would be fairly trivial for GW to include it, but they have chosen not to- and that is a decision that reflects poorly on both them as a game company and us as a hobby entire.

 

Representation matters. Not every pictures needs to be a multiethnic omnigendered picture of harmony, but when you can count the number of female characters in the entire hobby on one hand, when you are hard-pressed to name even a single non-white person in the entire setting, that's indicative of a problem. It's a signal to minorities of all sorts that we don't think they matter or are important, and believe me it's one that they are wholly aware of even if many of us are blind to it.

 

 

And regarding fluff, GW writes the fluff to sell models. They are very clear about their focus being selling models. I think they'd sell more models if they got some female representation in the SM and CSM factions.

 

See, this is one that really makes me wonder, fluff-wise. Okay, so sure, the Imperium is crippled by is rigid adherence to tradition and protocol and ancient ways of doing things that means they will never, ever, ever create any female Space Marines because that's not the way we used to do things so we have to do it that way forever.

 

But Chaos is all about breaking free of limitations. Why has Fabius Bile not created any female CSM? That's throwing away half of your entire potential stock right there!

[Kremmet]

Many people in this thread are really hitting the nail on the head with Pax's latest post being especially cogent.

 

What I would add here is that all of this was set up by GW back when they actually cared about the satirical elements of the game. We weren't supposed to see women or even PoC because we're supposed to be seeing the Imperium as a fascist regime. They're not about equity, they're not about reducing the other, and they sure as hell aren't the good guys. We're not supposed to look at the Imperium and go "wow that's so rad," but the catch 22 of selling satire is that what sells is exactly what you're trying to expose as absurd.

 

Pax is absolutely right that SoB are being sold on the premise of the Other, but the issue with that is the game is now more about grimdark power fantasies than it is an intentional dark mirror. Since they've moved to a more...forgiving setting the question becomes whether they should keep those trappings that were intentionally inflammatory from before.  I know I personally find boobplate to be a perfectly valid aesthetic choice and one that can even carry a positive message (ie through aforementioned satire), but as the game has moved towards being a more serious setting it loses that validity by being the only choice. 

 

I guess I see it as an issue of GW needing to either move backwards to a far more obvious satirical setting or to advance 40k's image to be more in keeping with modern sensibilities. This especially holds true given the social climate we're currently living in.

[dalmer]

Quick question about the Commoragh game:  everyone think this'll be a nice lil' box set game like the latest ones that have two armies represented in it to add some new, cool models to 40k?  I'm envisioning a dark eldar group (obviously) but maybe like a "dirty dozen" of other races/slaves that are forced to fight in the pits...

[pretre]

No idea yet.

[BrainFireBob]

When describing 40k to "outsiders" power armor is not a foreign concept these days. The main difference, from a modeling stance, between guard and SM is the presence or lack of power armor. Sisters, from a game mechanic stance, are the army in between guard and SM. So no, they are not equal, but I was not suggesting sisters were "equal" to SM, that is my complaint.

No, it's genetic engineering, part of which is a full body neural interface with power armor, allowing it to be.used as if it's not being worn at all. Most accurately, Sisters ae equivalent to stormtroopers with better gear.

 

 

Also not true. Females [gamer or otherwise] just want to be represented like the other humans of the setting. In 40k, human women are an alien race, functionally unique to a single army. They are a thematic army, like SW, they focus on a particular theme. For SW, that's the vikings and wolves. For sisters, their entire theme is being female... A gender should be more than just a thematic army concept.

Aside from resolution issues, this is an incredibly patriarchal attitude from someone who is, as I recall, not only male but a white male. To me, that kind of tokenism is offensive and opinion driven. I don't like Eldar because I'm an elf, nor do I like SMs because I'm a fascist warrior monk, but poor girls only are drawn to a thing because of their sex organs? If GW made female SMs, suddenly we'd be awash in female gamers because they avoided 40k due to the lack of female SMs? Nonsense.

 

There's a reason there's so many waves of feminism. To one, an all-female army, especially huper-sexualized, would be getting their own back. To others, it's patronizingly sexidt and diminutive.

 

It's a game divised by a bunch if Brits in the 80s based on a bunch of scifi tropes. So, mainly dudes and yes, overwhelmingly white. So what? They weren't making a social statement, nor were they trying to portray a happy, integrated society. It's not white privilege anymore than it would be black.privilege if it was designed in Ethiopia instead and the characters were overwhelmingly black. There's a point one is just looking for an excuse to be offended.

 

On fluff: You have to be compatible with the geneseed for implants, so being the same gender as the.prarch makes sense. In meta terms, it also leaves half the population carrying compatible genes in the breeding pool.

 

On models: Bare marine heads should look like they have gigantism, not be an identifiably ethnic type. I also think the bare heads are moronic, and don't see the ethnicity of my.marines as relevant in their armor. To provide ethnicities, the demand would be to add what, a half-dozen heads, but they'd need to be every sprue, because making the assault marine asian while the devastator is black while the tactical is white is so biased.. .

 

And regarding fluff, GW writes the fluff to sell models. They are very clear about their focus being selling models. I think they'd sell more models if they got some female representation in the SM and CSM factions.

This is fine, because here you're not talking about how female gamers just want representation and that's their issue, but rather that you think it's the issue and more female models would fix it. I disagree- I think it's the fascist grimdark wargame attracting a non-representative male:female ratio inherently- but that's a different item entirely.

As an aside, the SM and CSM could just as easily stand for the Space MEN and Chaos Space MEN, with the way GW models them.

Well, they're genetically engineered post humans since early puberty, whether they're more than formerly or notionally male is also open to dispute, IMO

[Lord Hanaur]

Hoboy.  Guys.  this is SO deep into the reeds.  Can we just enjoy this new era of having some toys for one of the coolest looking armies around?  

 

Just like the way the Adepta Sororitas look and play.  It's been a winner for me.  Now that they are getting SOME attention, the talk of squatting can be crushed formally!

[pretre]

Hoboy.  Guys.  this is SO deep into the reeds.  Can we just enjoy this new era of having some toys for one of the coolest looking armies around?  

 

Just like the way the Adepta Sororitas look and play.  It's been a winner for me.  Now that the yare getting SOME attention, the talk of squatting can be crushed formally!

We're so deep into the reeds that I'm agreeing with LH. :)

[Guest]

Might need to move this one to Realm of Chaos.....

Aside from resolution issues, this is an incredibly patriarchal attitude from someone who is, as I recall, not only male but a white male. 
 

So my opinion is invalid because of my race and gender? Sounds both racist and sexist. If it matters, I recall you being a white male too, though I could be wrong there. Most of the 40k players in Oregon which I encounter are white males. And to be fair, the 2010 census of oregon has being white representing 80+% of the population. Regarding females, the 2010 census says women are in majority (51% or so), which does mean that if women as a whole, truly wanted to vote anything into existance (or out of existance), they could because they have majority vote in our democracy. So if it is a patriarchal Oregon, that's because the women are not united in changing it. Despite sterotype, males are not the majority in america. 

 

And I don't understand how you keep coming back to "tokenism" which I'm not suggesting. All I'm suggesting is that GW alter their fluff (back to what it was) to admit the possibility of female SM in your armies. Regarding tokenism, even males are sort of tokens in a 40k army, the average solider being a nameless, genderless model for most purposes (some players name them). It's the special characters I think that could use more representation. Every SM special character is male. Every CSM special character is male. With 51+% of the population female, I'd add a few women to that list of special characters. And GW has already, two named female SM from the Rogue Trader days.

 

Regarding models, again, I wouldn't change any of them. I might add a more femine head in with some of the kits, but the current heads could just about all be considered female, esepecially if you describe them as such. Those BA heads even have long hair and no facial hair, if that's your idea of female heads (I was thinking more along the lines of the bone structure in the head, not the hair or other exterior features). The main obstacle to female SM is the GW fluff, not the models. 

[pretre]

 

Can you guys please just, I dunno, find a better place for this 'discussion'?

[Guest]

 

Can you guys please just, I dunno, find a better place for this 'discussion'?

Ours is on topic, but as I suggested, the thread might be better placed in the Realm of Chaos.

 

It's what you get your starting a Plastic Sisters thread..... ;) 

[pretre]

Ours is on topic, but as I suggested, the thread might be better placed in the Realm of Chaos.

 

It's what you get your starting a Plastic Sisters thread..... ;) 

No, it really isn't.

 

 

Take it to ROC so we can ignore it and get back to talking about the upcoming releases for 40k.

[Guest]

No, it really isn't.

I included the "winky smily face." Just a joke. Don't have a cow. 

[Guest]

There's a handy ignore user function too that's made these crap-posts a lot more bearable too!

And yet, you still know what I'm saying enough to point this out every time. I love having my own fan club in you, Necrontyr. Even if you dislike my posts, it's a fan club.

[pretre]

There's a handy ignore user function too that's made these crap-posts a lot more bearable too!

I like to pride myself on not using the ignore function. And he occasionally posts a 'gem'.

[Guest]

I like to pride myself on not using the ignore function. And he occasionally posts a 'gem'.

I actually have you and AP on ignore, but I almost always look at them. I think I was in a bad mood when I set it up for AP, and I haven't bothered to change it back. The ignore function is really easy to ignore in itself, as it just minimizes the post, but still let's you see them if you want to.  For you, I just set it up just because you post pictures a lot. I get to ignore the memes and other big pictures, if I want. Though again, I often look at them anyway.

 

And I'm always happy to get acknowledgement like the above. And although annoying at first, I've come to enjoy and depend on Necrontyr's fandom (Blustorm too, often enough). Watch for it, they "like" almost every post against me (not counter arguements, but actual attempted insults). Kinda endearing.

[WestRider]

Quick question about the Commoragh game:  everyone think this'll be a nice lil' box set game like the latest ones that have two armies represented in it to add some new, cool models to 40k?  I'm envisioning a dark eldar group (obviously) but maybe like a "dirty dozen" of other races/slaves that are forced to fight in the pits...

I'm expecting something more like the AoS Gorechosen Game, with just a handful of character Models.

[WestRider]

Aside from resolution issues, this is an incredibly patriarchal attitude from someone who is, as I recall, not only male but a white male. To me, that kind of tokenism is offensive and opinion driven. I don't like Eldar because I'm an elf, nor do I like SMs because I'm a fascist warrior monk, but poor girls only are drawn to a thing because of their sex organs? If GW made female SMs, suddenly we'd be awash in female gamers because they avoided 40k due to the lack of female SMs? Nonsense.

 

This is fine, because here you're not talking about how female gamers just want representation and that's their issue, but rather that you think it's the issue and more female models would fix it. I disagree- I think it's the fascist grimdark wargame attracting a non-representative male:female ratio inherently- but that's a different item entirely.

There are plenty of women and POC who would tell you otherwise, but probably not on here, since, y'know, this sort of thing is a big part of why they avoid this hobby, so almost none of them are on Ordo. This isn't just something that AP and I decided on our own. It's something we're passing along because we actually listen when people who are not white dudes tell us these things. I know a number of female gamers who are down with grimdark, but won't touch 40K because of this sort of attitude.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Something overtly sexual yet inhuman in a Geiger creation?

 

That wasn't a Geiger creation.  Geiger's Queen didn't wear shoes...

[pretre]

Greetings Guardsmen,

Today we bring you an unparalleled opportunity for glory.

The Ecclesiarchy are looking for willing volunteers to join a Crusade of the Righteous into the Ocularis Terribus.*

As you are currently on route to Cadia to take part in a potential live-fire learning opportunity anyway, you will be delighted to learn that you have been volunteered for glory in this Crusade.

The Emperor has bestowed a great honour upon you.

Most Guardsmen only dream of one day seeing a Living Saint of the Emperor, and you get to fight alongside one in righteous battle – and no less a legendary figure than Saint Celestine herself, most holy and beautific of the Emperor’s warriors in the entire Imperium! 

You will also be able to witness the glorious might of the Black Templars Space Marines at war.

For those of you who have not witnessed the zeal and fury of the Emperor’s Angels in battle before, this is a rare blessing and we are sure it will be illuminating**.  

This is a huge honour for you, but we are sure they are just as delighted to be assigned battle duty alongside [iNSERT SACRIFICIAL CRUSADE AUXILIARY REGIMENT HERE], since we all fight in the Emperor’s name.

Wow, a Crusade fleet – Lucky you.

We at the Regimental Standard wing of the Departmento Munitorum are very envious of the glory you are about to win. We would dearly love to join you, but our presence is required on Terra to ensure all commendation forms are processed properly***.

Have a great campaign though.

 

Though for the Day:
‘Beyond the Emperor’s reach lies only darkness and despair.’

 

* Eye of Terror. Don’t worry though, it’s just a name.
** In further good news, the chances of acquiring a commendation**** in battle increases 17-fold when deployed to the same battlefield as Adeptus Astartes.
*** There is currently a backlog of worthy candidates, so processing times may be in excess of 106 Terran years.
**** 94% of battlefield commendations are awarded posthumously.

[pretre]

[pretre]

 

 

from L'Astropate


- Gathering Storm - Fall of Cadia 40€, £30, USA $50, Can $60, Aus $84, NZ $99
- Triumvirate of the Imperium 85€, £50, USA $80, Can $100, Aus $140, NZ $165
- Chaos Battletome: Disciples of Tzeentch 20€, £15, USA $25, Can $30, Aus $40, NZ $50
- Gaunt Summoner 20€, £15, USA $25, Can $30, Aus $40, NZ $50
- Ogroid Thaumaturge 32,50€, £25, USA $41, Can $50, Aus $70, NZ $83
- Kairic Acolytes 40€, £30, USA $50, Can $60, Aus $84, NZ $99

[pretre]

That's a good price. I may have a Cawl for sale.