Hoo boy. Here we go. Competition and OFCC

[Darthweasel]

as an outsider with very little of value to contribute, I would say this; threads like this, which seem to pop up every year, do serve as somewhat as a disincentive to those of us who have never attended one to attend.

 

On the one side when it is first over people crow about how every game was awesomesauce, the coolest people they have ever met, the type of people they want their daughters to marry. Then a month or two later it feels like there is a lengthy thread about all the travesties of justice that occurred, how unfun/antifun/against the spirit it was, etc.

 

Again, this is as a disinterested, casual observer. I am not big on tournaments at this stage in my life, really dislike tournament settings with any sort of comp* and am not a target audience for the OFCC. However, the promise of a casual, laid back tournament is intriguing enough to make me consider it. But then I read these threads and I get the sense the much-promised "spirit of the OFCC" and the reality are vastly different. 

 

I am not saying it IS that way. I have never been. I am saying that the impression given off by these threads to a casual observer with no axe to grind, they can be interpreted that way. Hope it is helpful.

 

 

 

* especially hypocritical in light of my current preferred 40k style game: small points, single codex, no allies and no forge world...but I would want to play all those things in a tournament, which is much different than wanting to learn the game well enough to play in a tournament should I so desire. I differentiate between what I CURRENTLY want in a casual game and what I want when either I know the game better or play a tournament

[Justjokin]

DDub, No travesties occurred in my OFCC games.  Pure fun, and thank god I don't have any daughters.  Even my toughest matches and my losses.  FW, Zombies, whatever.  The atmosphere was/is great.  I have/only have 10 OFCC matches under my belt, but it will be 15 by next year, if I have my way.  I run pure Tau, no hijinks.  I went in with the attitude to have fun, and I didn't do half bad.  By the way, doing 'half bad, half good' is called the 'OFCC experience", and is worth a bonus point for your team!  What ever negativity there might be in this thread, I don't recall it being in the room during the event.  

 

Also:

[scottshoemaker]

@Darthweasel. You actually are the target audience of the OFCC. It not supposed to be interpreted as a tournament. It is an event where we can roll out our toys and have a crackin good time. The list rating committee and the team captions are in place to enforce restraint. The forge world argument got out of hand. Even though there were pretty loose restriction on army construction ( I ran an unbound list that was mostly ineffective ). There were units and combos that were ruled too powerful and rejected. As a non tournament player myself I enjoyed the whole event. OFCC realty is more about a player mindset than anything else. With the addition of additional night we were able to accommodate more styles of play to include a hardcore tourney, which knowing my limitations I didn't participate in. As long as the spirit of the event is held by the participants the OFCC will continue to be the great event it is.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I will sound off with the others. On the Fantasy side of things I had a great time even with my Empire list I that I made sure was just a pure fun list that I purposely handicapped. I was more bringing up that the Raters jobs have become tougher and I hope a better rating system can be installed to keep the OFCC a fun event where compitition is for being the coolest player not for bringing the biggest D-Bag list that you can sneak past the raters.

[Swan-of-War]

...keep the OFCC a fun event where compitition is for being the coolest player not for bringing the biggest D-Bag list that you can sneak past the raters.

 

One man's D-bag is another man's water bottle.  

 

I just think some players have a problem "bringing down" their list in light of their local meta and power-level-acceptance.

[KAPcom]

Not to derail the current conversation, but maybe there's a simple-ish solution to some of the problems people have with the current system. Maybe we can use the built in polling tool that the forums have to rate lists. People could submit their lists to one of the admins, who would repost the list with a rating poll (to keep the lists anonymous).

 

There's a lot of passionate people on this site, and the beauty of technology is that everyone can voice their opinion without using any resources. I think this method would take some pressure off of the people who rate lists, and possibly end up with a more well balanced event in the end.

[fluger]

The problem with that is that everything becomes a shouting match.  I'm not sure there's a proper website to set up surveys for these things, but it would need to be outside the forums and have no way to leave comments.  

 

Getting the community's general impressions of list power level is all well and good, but by the time we have them all to compare, the clock is ticking on making changes.  Also, I'm not sure people realize how much time it takes to look at and review 80+ lists.  

 

Also, how would we restrict survey participation?  Maybe get a code when you pay for your ticket?  

 

Even then, what are you getting with this survey?  

 

I think a more comprehensive post-event survey is in order.  I know that the OFCC ran one after the 2014 one, but I don't know what the results of it were.  

[Guest]

I still like the idea of a side board in 40k. Just have players build a 1500pt list with an exchangeable 500pt add-on list. 1 consistent base list, plus two 500pt add-on lists. Let them pick each game, which add-on to use. Should do wonders for balance.

 

Point level is an example.

[Lord Hanaur]

The trouble with a survety after the fact is the fear that some comment will be taken as somehow critical instead of constructive.

 

To listen to some people tell it, every gamer fart in the place smelled of rainbows and candy canes afterwards.  Obviously, they're overstating it. But anyone who even hints that a fart might have stunk gets stoned to death.

 

Maybe the invitational nature of it causes people to fear smelling anything but Rainbows and candy canes.  Who knows.  

 

But I think Zhen pulled off the list rating thing fine.  He posted them all, and said VOTE.  And we did.  1,2, 3 or 4 if I recall.  That was the year the Deffrollaz had 3 1'a and a 2.  THAT worked because then you can say "hey, you all had a say!"

[fluger]

If it is an anonymous survey, I don't see how anyone would worry about reprisal...

[Guest]

If it is an anonymous survey, I don't see how anyone would worry about reprisal...

Anonymous creates new issues where you can't be sure who voted at all. If truly anonymous, how do we know that the intended voters voted?

[fluger]

Have a link given out at the end of the event.  Only those who attended would get it.  Why someone who didn't go would fill it out if found, I can't fathom.  

[Guest]

Have a link given out at the end of the event.  Only those who attended would get it.  Why someone who didn't go would fill it out if found, I can't fathom.  

How do you prevent the same person from voting multiple times, while still being anonymous?

 

Honor system? At that point, why not just have them promise to not look at the other votes?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

One man's D-bag is another man's water bottle.

 

I just think some players have a problem "bringing down" their list in light of their local meta and power-level-acceptance.

I hear you and that is a problem. You mention Swedish Comp and it gets follow ups about how it doesn't stop all power combos and can be gamed or how it is too much of a constrant on their style of play. But without a system then there are no guidelines to look to and some players do take advantage of that too.

 

No matter what is done there will always be players looking to game the system but doing that for OFCC is not only pointless, best General is a joke award, but goes against OFCC is about. And yes some Metas are hardcore and coming to OFCC might open their eyes to another way to play. It is the captain's job to make sure their players know what OFCC is about, but that doesn't always happen. I didn't play against this team but one Captain tried to argue his way into getting his dirty list and some of his players becuase there were no strict guidline. and he turned the lists in a Week before OFCC. Honestly I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

So Now the Senate has a task at hand to keep this from becoming more common. And I wish them luck.

[VonVilkee]

I still like the idea of a side board in 40k. Just have players build a 1500pt list with an exchangeable 500pt add-on list. 1 consistent base list, plus two 500pt add-on lists. Let them pick each game, which add-on to use. Should do wonders for balance.

 

Point level is an example.

I personally hate side boards in a game like this, it favors armies with cheap options they can swap around. I always end up with awkward breaks in my space Marines. I'd prefer everybody has to just make choices, instead of the take a core cuz changing that much of the list changes allot of the support options and makes the list less synergistic and more tailored. Making for even poorer experiences between an experienced player and a more casual player.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I still like the idea of a side board in 40k. Just have players build a 1500pt list with an exchangeable 500pt add-on list. 1 consistent base list, plus two 500pt add-on lists. Let them pick each game, which add-on to use. Should do wonders for balance.

 

Point level is an example.

 

I do not agree with it bringing balance to the forces.  I think it would do more harm.  Especially on Harder lists.

 

No matter what is done there will always be players looking to game the system but doing that for OFCC is not only pointless, best General is a joke award, but goes against OFCC is about. And yes some Metas are hardcore and coming to OFCC might open their eyes to another way to play. It is the captain's job to make sure their players know what OFCC is about, but that doesn't always happen. I didn't play against this team but one Captain tried to argue his way into getting his dirty list and some of his players becuase there were no strict guidline. and he turned the lists in a Week before OFCC. Honestly I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

 

I've only attended one event.  I believe I have the order right.

 

1: vs Ultramarines

2: vs Tank Guard

3: vs Dark Angels

4: vs Guard/Daemonhunters (I don't think GK was out yet)

5: vs Guard

 

- Game 1 was great!  I'm pretty sure I lost.

 

- Game 2 was stupid.  Like pack my army, because he had something like 10 tanks on the table and I could do absolutely nothing about it.  "You have the best chances," said Derek.  "I have 4 Melta Guns," I replied.  It was a very frustrating game, not because of Beau, but because of his list compared to my tools.  Needless to say he tabled me.  I think I /may/ have had half a tank and a handful of Templar left on table at the end.

 

- Game 3 vs Deathwing army was fun. I don't think it was a Deffwing, but I recall the other player talking about his Deffwing.  I won this one.

 

- Game 4 was [big bad swear word]ed up.  As far as I'm concerned, the guy deliberately cheated.  He quite literally told me, when I called him out on not rolling for a unit falling back for 2 turns, that it was out of sequence and I didn't call him on it at the appropriate time, ergo he wasn't going to roll for them.  This won him the game.  The dishonest behavior ran far deeper than that during the game, but I felt like I was the New Guy in the room, and from a region that hasn't been well represented at OFCC, so I didn't feel it was my place to say anything at the time to organizers, let alone coming off as "Nuh-uh, you only won cuz you cheated, I should've won."  I don't give two [big bad swear word]s about winning.  I'm not "one of the best players" in the region.  I'm not "one of the best players" in my LGS, either.  My problem was that he cheated.

 

- Game 5 didn't start out too pleasant in game.  Opponent destroyed my LRC on turn 1, and took out half the contents in the explosion.  My Pods came in on turn two and started eating his face.  He didn't know Templar ran at you when wounded, and so I started eating the crap out of him, and denied his Horsemen with the exploding sticks from charging me.  The hard part for both of us came at the end.  We were discussing WHEN ATSKNF kicked in and IF the lone Neophyte remaining from the LRC (the rest kept eating LR or Artillery shells) regrouped or not.  It was while I was explaining to him that I believed it happened at the beginning of my turn, and that my Lone Neophyte, being that he didn't have anyone within almost 30", would regroup because ATSKNF regardless of being below half unit strength when Judges called Time.  I won, because my Neophyte regrouped.  He would've won, otherwise.  It was a close game, a fun game, overall.  I felt bad for him.  I know going into the game I was still pissy over what happened with the DH player, and to have my Tanks blown up faster than the game against Necrontyr was a complete "you've gotta be kidding me, right now" moment.  

 

 

Out of the lists I faced, Necrontyr's was the only list I faced that I felt was "Too Hard" for what I was told OFCC was about.  To the same point, I want to see "Fluffy" armies.  I want to see non-standard armies.  I want to know that I could bring a FW model that I spent way too much money on that I can't use in local scene outside of fun pick up games.  Because isn't that what they are supposed to be, 5 fun games against great opponents?  

 

That said, there were a couple teams who's lists every year I've seen them make me go "Really?  WTF?  Why is it THEY are allowed to get away with this?"  And as I understand it, in recent years the "PRIZES" are raffled out instead of going to "Best Gen" or "Best Overall" or "Best Painted" or whatever.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think, Prizes should be raffled out.  All of them.  I don't think there should be a list rating committee.  I don't think there should be a structure beyond "2000 point list, painted to a 3 color minimum+basing."  The focus should be playing to have fun, not trying to game the system for prizes.  Nor should anyone feel their list is being excluded when "Well, my local meta is..." or "I've been playing this list since before it was OP" or whatever the case may be. 

 

Or maybe I never understood what OFCC was about.

[Steel Angel]

 

Out of the lists I faced, Necrontyr's was the only list I faced that I felt was "Too Hard" for what I was told OFCC was about.  To the same point, I want to see "Fluffy" armies.  I want to see non-standard armies.  I want to know that I could bring a FW model that I spent way too much money on that I can't use in local scene outside of fun pick up games.  Because isn't that what they are supposed to be, 5 fun games against great opponents?  

 

That said, there were a couple teams who's lists every year I've seen them make me go "Really?  WTF?  Why is it THEY are allowed to get away with this?"  And as I understand it, in recent years the "PRIZES" are raffled out instead of going to "Best Gen" or "Best Overall" or "Best Painted" or whatever.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think, Prizes should be raffled out.  All of them.  I don't think there should be a list rating committee.  I don't think there should be a structure beyond "2000 point list, painted to a 3 color minimum+basing."  The focus should be playing to have fun, not trying to game the system for prizes.  Nor should anyone feel their list is being excluded when "Well, my local meta is..." or "I've been playing this list since before it was OP" or whatever the case may be. 

 

Or maybe I never understood what OFCC was about.

 

I agree with all of this. Sept I would go one step further and make having a written background and all characters named. I'm tried of hearing " yer i got a fluffy army. see they all have flamers. "

[InfestedKerrigan]

I agree with all of this. Sept I would go one step further and make having a written background and all characters named. I'm tried of hearing " yer i got a fluffy army. see they all have flamers. "

 

lol  I actually choose not to participate in another forum's Painting Challenges because the consensus over there has been to include 2 paragraphs of fluff with the entry.  I have never been interested in writing fluff.  

 

 

Oh, and I was referring to Beau's list as both a Hard list and a Fluffy list.  Actually, that list is a prime example of why I think there shouldn't be restrictions at OFCC.  

 

 

 

I think my List was something to the effect of

 

Chapter Master+Chappy+8 Man Command Squad twin Meltas in Pod

2x 7 Initiate/3 Neophyte in Pod

14 men + Emp Champ in a LRC

12 Men in a LRC

2x Dread (don't recall if they were in pods or not)

[pretre]

Wait, Necrontyr's list was too hard? Also lol at horrible far metaphors.

[pretre]

I'm pretty positive you must be thinking of someone else. Necrontyr's list was walking crons and I think we almost asked him to power it up.

[InfestedKerrigan]

It wasn't this past year, this was a few years back.  The guy who runs (ran?) the game store out in Coeur d'Alene was HoG that year, iirc.  Necrontyr brought Armoured Company.  Garret brought his Raptors.  I believe the event was in Vanc, at a hotel across the street from burger king and an Asian restaurant.   I think EvilBryan had a team of Templar with Ando and a couple others.  

[pretre]

Aha my bad.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I think if someone wants to show up with 65 Lonewolfs wielding Combi-Flamers, let them.  If someone wants to show up running a well-balanced all-comers list, let them.  If someone wants to show up running 5 Knights, let them.  2000 pts, 3 color Painted and Based.

 

Just don't make Prize Support and game score equatable.  

 

It seems to be the easiest way to get rid of a substantial part of the stress and deliberation of the event.  Nobody can be accused of being biased in allowing or not allowing something.  

 

If the event is supposed to be about having fun with guys you don't regularly play with, I don't believe keeping score is conductive to that environment.  The goal is supposed to be more like Garagehammer than the Tourney Circuit, isn't it?

[VonVilkee]

All the years I've been going prizes have only been raffled with extra tickets or special drawing for favorite opponent pins. No raffle bonus for winning games. Why does this idea of raffle the prizes always get suggested? It is already done!

[pretre]

Trophies too?