40K 9th ed

[MexicanNinja]

Just now, Lyraeus said:

You are hitting exactly why I wont build a marine army. Sisters of Battle will likely be my next army

It sucks because I love the BA lore and what they represent but I just don't want anything to do with them game wise and I was chuggin along with this OFCC army until all this COVID stuff happened.  Now I just have an unfinished army which I have no desire to finish.

On the bright side, I did pick up the first box for a Tempestus Scions army and I am planning on starting the work on them.

[Lyraeus]

4 minutes ago, MexicanNinja said:

It sucks because I love the BA lore and what they represent but I just don't want anything to do with them game wise and I was chuggin along with this OFCC army until all this COVID stuff happened.  Now I just have an unfinished army which I have no desire to finish.

On the bright side, I did pick up the first box for a Tempestus Scions army and I am planning on starting the work on them.

That sounds fun!

[Mulgrok]

I will stop using primaris units, because they did not increase cost enough.

[Ish]

Part of me is very tempted to use Intercessor bodies, but slap regular boltguns on seven of them, a chainsword on the sarge, a regular flamer or plasmagun on another, and a regular heavy bolter or missile launcher on the last.  Space Marine Tacti-Tall Squad!

As conversion projects go, it wouldn’t be that difficult, although it would be time consuming...

Still, I’m enjoying the heck out of Adeptus Custodes right now and plan to stick with them. I think my next army project is going to be a xenos faction, just because I’m contrarian by nature and feel like I ought to play xenos. I just wish that there was a non-horde or non-vehicle intensive xenos army of some kind. 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Mulgrok said:

I will stop using primaris units, because they did not increase cost enough.

Its not necessarily a Primaris issue. You also should not feel bad for playing what you like. 

For me it is all the tools you get with those choices. More strats, relics, abilities, etc than any other army.

It doesn't make Marines OP just extremely tough to play against. 

 

[Ish]

What irks me about Marines (under their current codex, I still hope the new one will fix it) is that they moved from being “The Mario” to being “The Ace.”

The main schtick of the Space Marines were that they were the generalist faction, good at everything but not great at any one thing. Blood Angels and Space Wolves were better at mêlée, but still not as great at it as true mêlée focused factions like Khorne; Imperial Fists and Raven Guard were better at shooting, but still not as great as true shooty armies like Tau or Imperial Guard. So on and so forth for all the chapters and whatever their specialty was.

But the current codex with its super doctrines, specialist units, and stratagems out the whazoo has moved them from Jack of All Trades into Masters of All Trades.

 

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

What irks me about Marines (under their current codex, I still hope the new one will fix it) is that they moved from being “The Mario” to being “The Ace.”

The main schtick of the Space Marines were that they were the generalist faction, good at everything but not great at any one thing. Blood Angels and Space Wolves were better at mêlée, but still not as great at it as true mêlée focused factions like Khorne; Imperial Fists and Raven Guard were better at shooting, but still not as great as true shooty armies like Tau or Imperial Guard. So on and so forth for all the chapters and whatever their specialty was.

But the current codex with its super doctrines, specialist units, and stratagems out the whazoo has moved them from Jack of All Trades into Masters of All Trades.

 

Fair 🥺

[Dark Trainer]

12 hours ago, Ish said:

But the current codex with its super doctrines, specialist units, and stratagems out the whazoo has moved them from Jack of All Trades into Masters of All Trades.

 

Not that it's right, but when was the last time Marines were the powerhouse? Never really hit that stride. So this will be their time to shine like many factions get. Is it over the top? Maybe, time will tell. But every time we've seen power shifts, each following codex usually does a decent job of adjusting power creep up too. 

Long story short, totally agree. But I don't play 40k as a competitive win at all costs game. Thus, the games I do play will be great regardless of that power creep.

[Ish]

Space Marines were really strong in Third, Fifth, and Sixth Editions. With Space Wolves a real powerhouse in Fourth, Grey Knights in Sixth, and Deathwatch in Eighth. (Not technically Space Marines, but still... They still add to the perception of “Space Marines are the favorite child.”)

Having said that, I don’t feel like they were as strong, relative to the rest of the field, as the second Eighth Edition codex has made them currently.

I’m under no illusions that WH40k will ever be a perfectly balanced game, but that should still be the design goal. I feel like Eighth Edition was about as close to that goal as the game has ever been... except for Codex: Space Marines 2.0

[Inquisitor66]

I don't feel that space marines are 1 faction anymore. They have done a respectable job of differentiating the chapters. It's more like 8 armies that share similar profiles.

9 if you count Grey Knights.

[Mulgrok]

I hope they get rid of tactical doctrines and just give a 3rd chapter trait.  The doctrines are fluffy, but they just add more mental overhead I have to keep track of.  I would rather have a fluffy static bonus that is applied all game.

[Ish]

I’ve always felt like the Tactical Doctrines were kind of mildly insulting... Like the book was telling me how to play my army. 

[Mulgrok]

4 hours ago, Ish said:

I’ve always felt like the Tactical Doctrines were kind of mildly insulting... Like the book was telling me how to play my army. 

at the moment, it dictates that my Salamander army is dumb to do anything other than putting some Aggressor and Eradicator units in reserve to overkill stuff on turns 2 and 3.

[blackvigil]

I think they should make the Doctrines into 1CP strats. You want to be in Assault this turn? Spend a CP and you are. Done deal. 

[Ish]

I think they should just drop them entirely. You want to assault this turn? Roll the charge dice and do it. You want to shoot this turn? Roll the to hit dice and do it.

Don’t need it to be dictated to you when and how you make your army do things.

[Inquisitor66]

I actually really like doctrines. It makes me feel like my force has turned war into a science with certain phases baked in.

You can still do stuff out of phase, the benefit is just 1 ap.  The chapter doctrine bonus might be a bit much, I can never remember it.

[Lyraeus]

22 hours ago, Inquisitor66 said:

I actually really like doctrines. It makes me feel like my force has turned war into a science with certain phases baked in.

You can still do stuff out of phase, the benefit is just 1 ap.  The chapter doctrine bonus might be a bit much, I can never remember it.

Doctrines on there own are not a huge issue though. Its everything else that comes with it. All the over the top strats that are similar or better to what other factions have, relics that equal or beat every other faction, the list goes on. 

 

It is just so frustrating. 

[Munkie]

Bolter drill was the first, army-wide attempt to make space marines feel trained in a way nobody else was, and it was pretty good.

Then they came out with the doctrine system and it was so broken that they had to to re-write it and remove an entire stratagem just to try to keep it from continuing to ruin the game, as it had clearly done.

Between auras, more auras, ridiculous stratagems, combat doctrines, chapter tactics, shock assault (IMO, the dumbest space marine rule), and bolter drill, the combo-stacking is fankly game deciding.

You don't have to be good to win. Just play space marines.

[VonVilkee]

19 minutes ago, Munkie said:

Bolter drill was the first, army-wide attempt to make space marines feel trained in a way nobody else was, and it was pretty good.

Then they came out with the doctrine system and it was so broken that they had to to re-write it and remove an entire stratagem just to try to keep it from continuing to ruin the game, as it had clearly done.

Between auras, more auras, ridiculous stratagems, combat doctrines, chapter tactics, shock assault (IMO, the dumbest space marine rule), and bolter drill, the combo-stacking is fankly game deciding.

You don't have to be good to win. Just play space marines.

But true... Shock assault is counter intuitive too as it pretty much always applies instead of when they charge.

[Munkie]

1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

But true... Shock assault is counter intuitive too as it pretty much always applies instead of when they charge.

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

[InfestedKerrigan]

1 hour ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

It's cuz the marine crew jumps out, duh.

[Mulgrok]

Guess I will convert all of my assault intercessor sergeants to hammers.  I only painted 1 unit of them because I expected this to happen.

[Ish]

3 hours ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

God, I hate the current codex...

[Mulgrok]

5 hours ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

first time I charged with a rhino it did 3 damage. Killed 1 intercessor and wounded another.  Rhino OP.

[Tao Tsê-Mung]

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

We all know the new primaris speeder will be significantly undercosted so GW can sell a bazillion kits, and they confirmed the all-marine-eq releases for the next five months, but this level is seriously going to ruin a lot of people’s fun at the table.

Even the new necron datasheets actually reveal some stealth nerfs that will specifically hurt them against these extra-shooty marine upgrades. And keep in mind necrons never got any PA buffs either.

In particular the new chronometron can’t apply the reroll charge buff to reinforcements/deep strike, and the invul save is now a single unit instead of previously a full aura effect. MWBD already suffered from this compared to the best marine buffs being auras.

In addition, five of the six new necron units are HQs which they already have way too many for the slots since Indomitus. So even if they each have useful buffs, they apply to only one unit each and will be impossible to take enough buffing characters to keep the army on par.

Meanwhile marines, who already have the best buffing strats and characters - many in the elite slots - are gaining even more condensed heavy firepower and better toughness/wound troops than DG/AC.

When these units drop people are going to have to start prefacing their LFG posts with “marines” or “anything but” because nothing else is going to survive turn two. Marines were already the best at playing the missions for points as well.

That can’t even be fun for marines players at this point.